Open message to Phil

[Northerner]

I must admit that I find the proposition that we should be able to say anything that we like very puzzling. Hasn't history taught us anything? The fact that we have laws prohibiting certain kinds of speech is proof in itself that society disapproves of unfettered opinion. I also find it odd that people who would never condone a physical attack on someone can contemplate a world in which we can attack them just as viciously in print or speech.

Many ordinary Germans found it easier to push Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals into the gas chambers and to club children to death, as Jewish children weren't worth a bullet. (As witnessed by a late friend who was in Bergen Belsen.)

Why were they able to do these monstrous things? It was because Hitler and Goebbels had, by clever propaganda, persuaded them that such people were sub-human and not worthy of normal civilised treatment.

Politicians and government, by enacting such things as the Race Relations Act have changed our behaviour. We now accept, or I hope that we do, that landladies can no longer put notices in their windows saying: No Blacks, Pakis or Irish. We no longer accept, or I hope that we do, that it is wrong to say that Jews are all racially inferior shylocks who are undermining society. There are extremists out there who hold these views. Should we allow them to voice them?

Was government right to stop us saying these things and behaving like this? Or should we be able to say whatever we like, no matter how distressing and no matter what the risk is of stirring the more unthinking members of our country into acts of violence against minorities.

As for forums such as this, any libel can also rebound on the site's owner and he can be enjoined in any forthcoming legal proceedings and the decision in such cases should be his and his alone.

 

[Tbear]

There are extremists out there who hold these views. Should we allow them to voice them?
If we silence them we loose track of who they are.
Is it what we say or where when and how we say it. I'm not clever enough to work it out so I just try to be a bit tolerant and stay within the law. Does not pay to put your blood pressure up trying to cure the worlds woes. Better polish the van ready for the next trip.

 

[zipnolan]

"I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" having said that it doesn't give you the right to piss people off or be a git under the flag of "free speach". I like other peoples views even if they are opposite to mine but get personal and the rules bend a little, stay John and contribute like you have in the past and don't piss Phil off because this is his baby so he gets to pull the plug whenever he wants - thats life !

 

[John H]

I must admit that I find the proposition that we should be able to say anything that we like very puzzling. Hasn't history taught us anything? The fact that we have laws prohibiting certain kinds of speech is proof in itself that society disapproves of unfettered opinion. I also find it odd that people who would never condone a physical attack on someone can contemplate a world in which we can attack them just as viciously in print or speech.

Many ordinary Germans found it easier to push Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals into the gas chambers and to club children to death, as Jewish children weren't worth a bullet. (As witnessed by a late friend who was in Bergen Belsen.)

Why were they able to do these monstrous things? It was because Hitler and Goebbels had, by clever propaganda, persuaded them that such people were sub-human and not worthy of normal civilised treatment.

Politicians and government, by enacting such things as the Race Relations Act have changed our behaviour. We now accept, or I hope that we do, that landladies can no longer put notices in their windows saying: No Blacks, Pakis or Irish. We no longer accept, or I hope that we do, that it is wrong to say that Jews are all racially inferior shylocks who are undermining society. There are extremists out there who hold these views. Should we allow them to voice them?

Was government right to stop us saying these things and behaving like this? Or should we be able to say whatever we like, no matter how distressing and no matter what the risk is of stirring the more unthinking members of our country into acts of violence against minorities.

As for forums such as this, any libel can also rebound on the site's owner and he can be enjoined in any forthcoming legal proceedings and the decision in such cases should be his and his alone.

I fear that history is usually ignored by those in power, which is the real reason why we tend to repeat the same mistakes - nothing to do with free speech.

As for your point about Hitler - have you not heard (and I can't remember the quote exactly, so apologies in advance) that "first they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I am not a Jew; then they came for the gypsies and I did not speak out because I am not a gypsy; then they came for the gays and I did not speak out because I am not gay; then they came for me - and there is no-one left to speak out".

Further, I have always maintained that free speech has to be observed within the law - and no law was broken in the recent thread (civil or criminal).

I, like you, find it depressing that history shows that propaganda can persuade people to do unspeakable things (and I have travelled through many countries where that has happened) but do you solve the problem by banning those people from speaking? In my experience, banning only serves to enhance the banned in the eyes of their supporters. I prefer (as someone else recently said) to know where the nasty people are and what they are saying - and to counter their evil views in public. I am reminded of (and cheered by) the way in which Nick Griffin's bubble was well and truly punctured by his appearance on "Question Time"; he has never had the same degree of influence since.

 

[John H]

"I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" having said that it doesn't give you the right to piss people off or be a git under the flag of "free speach".

It may be uncomfortable, but I rather think it does!:lol-053:

 

[fairytooth]

It may be uncomfortable, but I rather think it does!:lol-053:

If you read Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights properly you will find it is subject to restrictions in respecting the rights of others. You seem to be under the misguided impression it gives you carte blanche to say whatever you like.

I'm sure you don't really think that this forum is simply for you to use as you think fit.

 

[maingate]

I have tried to keep out of this discussion but feel I can no longer keep quiet on the matter.

My view is that all these fine words on freedom and rights mean absolutely nothing when spoken by someone who lives in a free society. Would these same people gob off in a situation where they could be thrown in jail, thrown out of their company owned house, blacklisted, shot, hanged or beaten by the authorities.

I have great respect for historical figures who brought about the changes we enjoy today (and take for granted). Northerner will be beside himself with rage when I include some people such as 19th Century Union organisers among them. They started the movement for fairness for working people. One of my greatest heroes is Mahatma Gandhi. He knew he could not defeat the British Empire on the battlefield but he defeated it anyway.

Please move on with your lives and find a more appropriate forum to air your feelings. John, I hope you stay but your posts are becoming monotonous. I already know how you feel, I feel very much the same as you, so please do not keep going over the same ground, we have got the message. :wave:

Northerner ...... you were formerly known as Hobbyfan on Motorhome Facts and you were thrown off there for the manner of your posts. back off a bit or you will get the same treatment on here no doubt.

Now can we get back to motorhoming topics and helping each other out please.

 

[Dezi]

I have tried to keep out of this discussion but feel I can no longer keep quiet on the matter.

My view is that all these fine words on freedom and rights mean absolutely nothing when spoken by someone who lives in a free society. Would these same people gob off in a situation where they could be thrown in jail, thrown out of their company owned house, blacklisted, shot, hanged or beaten by the authorities.

I have great respect for historical figures who brought about the changes we enjoy today (and take for granted). Northerner will be beside himself with rage when I include some people such as 19th Century Union organisers among them. They started the movement for fairness for working people. One of my greatest heroes is Mahatma Gandhi. He knew he could not defeat the British Empire on the battlefield but he defeated it anyway.

Please move on with your lives and find a more appropriate forum to air your feelings. John, I hope you stay but your posts are becoming monotonous. I already know how you feel, I feel very much the same as you, so please do not keep going over the same ground, we have got the message. :wave:

Northerner ...... you were formerly known as Hobbyfan on Motorhome Facts and you were thrown off there for the manner of your posts. back off a bit or you will get the same treatment on here no doubt.

Now can we get back to motorhoming topics and helping each other out please.

I can

Dezi c:

 

[Firefox]

I agree it was somewhat presumptious. But it was not based on randomness, only the way I have seen people express their opinions over the past week or so.

Many people will read/visit threads because they are new. They don't want to post or express opinions, but the people who have "liked" various posts gives you a snapshot of views across the forum.

I think JohnH is a valued and respected poster. He is also one of the best posters in my opinion. It's just on this particular issue, and having seen a couple of threads closed, it would be better if he could sit back a day or so and reflect, or disuss this with Phil on PMs if need be.

 

[John H]

If you read Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights properly you will find it is subject to restrictions in respecting the rights of others. You seem to be under the misguided impression it gives you carte blanche to say whatever you like.

I'm sure you don't really think that this forum is simply for you to use as you think fit.

Yes I have read Article 19 - and I accept those restrictions which are enshrined in law, as I have said several times - eg incitement, racial hatred etc. - thus I don't think that freedom gives anyone carte blanche. The points I have raised relate purely to comment that is within the law, but I accept, as stated by Maingate and Firefox, that the whole thing may be becoming tiresome to many and apologise to them. But if something is posted that I feel needs comment I will continue to do so. As someone else pointed out (sorry, I can't remember who) the most effective way to make a post disappear is not to respond to it. If there are enough people who feel they need to respond and if I feel the need to respond to their comments then it will continue - by popular demand. For those of you who feel it has gone far enough, I appreciate your view, but a conversation only ends when there is just one person who wants it to continue.

 

[n7ogp]

There's only one way to sort this out! FIGHT

 

[yorkslass]

You say you will ban me if I do not desist from complaining about what I see as censorship. You have your finger on the button but I am not a believer in "might being right" so, despite the fact that I may be banned I can give no such undertaking. If this turns out to be my last post, then so be it - I have had some interesting discussions on here and met some great people and if I can't engage with them on here I will continue to debate with them and others on forums that take a view on free speech that is closer to my own. I would prefer to stay but that is up to you.

it would be a loss to the forum if you were not to participate any longer. i have found most of what you have to say very informative regarding the law and wildcamping, and i guess that"s why most of us are here .