Ombudsman rules on DVLA approach to self build camper vans

[Nabsim]

I don’t know folks personally who got van with windows I don’t think but most I have seen online have related to the bonded on windows. Where builders used the caravan/motorhome style window they seemed to be looked at differently if everything else complied.

It’s a bit of a farce anyway, they should do an inspection like they do if you build a custom vehicle and have clear conditions on how everything should be to comply. I know when we were doing trikes we did our outmost to make sure they conformed but there were still a lot about that had reliant on their log books

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I didn't do anything special to mine other than as already mentioned, took plenty of pictures of the inside showing it wasn't a pop up thing but properly built with lockers etc, I included a well-written letter (wish I still had it) and showed the reg number with one door open so they knew it was the same van and it came back fine.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I found the original, which lays put what is required

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[trevskoda]

You went through some tins of paint there, rainbow worrier LOL.
Very nice van inside and looks the part, same sink unit as mine.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Searching for my letter this one I had sight of says it all, read the last paragraph

 

[Millie Master]

Ah well that's a category I know very well, I do a lot of electrical work on ex Ambulances being converted into motor caravans.
Ambulances in service are usually ved exempt, (fyi it is impossible to report a ved evader to the DVLA for driving an ex Ambulance under the exemption hence why the hard core dishonest ones get away with it for years)

I have learnt the hard way not touch one if its still being driven whilst the owner is exploiting it previous ved exempt status!
Simple reason behind that rule, those people that do are usually dishonourable people and are often the most likely to be the non payers!

I also have had many many conversations with people some seemingly too lazy or ignorant to find out and actually digest what the body type, taxation class, revenue weight and vehicle type sections etc on their V5 mean.

A significant proportion of people buy them because the are told (by equally dishonest traders) they are VED exempt well yes they are when being used as an Ambulance. The honest ones do change the taxation class from Ambulance to PLG or PHGV eventually.

That is when the poor sods who mistakenly bought a PTS Ambulance (aka a minibus) rather than an ex A&E van variant find out the Vehicle type on their V5 says M1(<=3500kg) or M2(>3500kg) rather than the usual N1 or N2.

It became increasingly common from circa 2012 onwards that minibuses were registered with Vehicle type on their V5 as M1 or M2

Sadly the Vehicle type category is 100% set in stone at the time the vehicle is first registered it can never be changed
In addition M1 means the vehicle is taxed as a car, based on emissions some of the older more polluting M1 van owners are paying the top rate of £500+

@barge1914
There is a potential workaround though, uprate the vehicle to >3500KG, get the taxation class changed to PHGV and although the Vehicle type remains M1 Ved is then the fixed rate of £165 for PHGV.

I hope you don't mind @Thistle but I have copied your above reply onto the sister site Motorhome Builder

 

[barge1914]

Ah well that's a category I know very well, I do a lot of electrical work on ex Ambulances being converted into motor caravans.
Ambulances in service are usually ved exempt, (fyi it is impossible to report a ved evader to the DVLA for driving an ex Ambulance under the exemption hence why the hard core dishonest ones get away with it for years)

I have learnt the hard way not touch one if its still being driven whilst the owner is exploiting it previous ved exempt status!
Simple reason behind that rule, those people that do are usually dishonourable people and are often the most likely to be the non payers!

I also have had many many conversations with people some seemingly too lazy or ignorant to find out and actually digest what the body type, taxation class, revenue weight and vehicle type sections etc on their V5 mean.

A significant proportion of people buy them because the are told (by equally dishonest traders) they are VED exempt well yes they are when being used as an Ambulance. The honest ones do change the taxation class from Ambulance to PLG or PHGV eventually.

That is when the poor sods who mistakenly bought a PTS Ambulance (aka a minibus) rather than an ex A&E van variant find out the Vehicle type on their V5 says M1(<=3500kg) or M2(>3500kg) rather than the usual N1 or N2.

It became increasingly common from circa 2012 onwards that minibuses were registered with Vehicle type on their V5 as M1 or M2

Sadly the Vehicle type category is 100% set in stone at the time the vehicle is first registered it can never be changed
In addition M1 means the vehicle is taxed as a car, based on emissions some of the older more polluting M1 van owners are paying the top rate of £500+

@barge1914
There is a potential workaround though, uprate the vehicle to >3500KG, get the taxation class changed to PHGV and although the Vehicle type remains M1 Ved is then the fixed rate of £165 for PHGV.

Sadly my age precludes me from driving over 3.5T

 

[wildebus]

Ah well that's a category I know very well, I do a lot of electrical work on ex Ambulances being converted into motor caravans.
Ambulances in service are usually ved exempt, (fyi it is impossible to report a ved evader to the DVLA for driving an ex Ambulance under the exemption hence why the hard core dishonest ones get away with it for years)

I have learnt the hard way not touch one if its still being driven whilst the owner is exploiting it previous ved exempt status!
Simple reason behind that rule, those people that do are usually dishonourable people and are often the most likely to be the non payers!

I also have had many many conversations with people some seemingly too lazy or ignorant to find out and actually digest what the body type, taxation class, revenue weight and vehicle type sections etc on their V5 mean.

A significant proportion of people buy them because the are told (by equally dishonest traders) they are VED exempt well yes they are when being used as an Ambulance. The honest ones do change the taxation class from Ambulance to PLG or PHGV eventually.

That is when the poor sods who mistakenly bought a PTS Ambulance (aka a minibus) rather than an ex A&E van variant find out the Vehicle type on their V5 says M1(<=3500kg) or M2(>3500kg) rather than the usual N1 or N2.

It became increasingly common from circa 2012 onwards that minibuses were registered with Vehicle type on their V5 as M1 or M2

Sadly the Vehicle type category is 100% set in stone at the time the vehicle is first registered it can never be changed
In addition M1 means the vehicle is taxed as a car, based on emissions some of the older more polluting M1 van owners are paying the top rate of £500+

@barge1914
There is a potential workaround though, uprate the vehicle to >3500KG, get the taxation class changed to PHGV and although the Vehicle type remains M1 Ved is then the fixed rate of £165 for PHGV.

Just an additional point (or few ) .... the comment about ambulances being VED exempt also applies to private vehicles that are "Mobility" vehicles - and there are a lot of vans out there registered thus and are popular for conversion.
My first van I bought to convert to a camper was a VW T4 converted (rather poorly) to a Mobilty vehicle by Versa (part of Bristol Street Motors) and would have been zero VED.
The M/N categories are a bit of a mess as well. They are often missing entirely on the registration document and so are pretty irrelevant to anything that matters..

PHGV vs PLG is something to be careful of. If an uprate is done to change to >3500Kg and you change to PHGV, you have a heavy goods vehicle for testing purposes. As long as you have a van that "looks like a Motor Caravan" for the MOT station (and they don't use the same logic as DVLA - but you never know, they may be forced into it?) then you can get a class 4 MOT. BUT it if DOESN'T look like a motor caravan (no hob, bed, etc), then it has to be tested as an HGV and have to go to a VOSA facility - and they won't test it as the vehicle won't have an HGV plate.
So timing is key - if your conversion is going to take some time, get an MOT done just before the weight Uprate and you have a year to complete before the next MOT is due.
Also the above applies to GB only. If you are in NI, the MOT carried out is dictated by the V5C info, not what the MOT decides the vehicle looks like. So if you do a conversion of a >3500Kg van and the DVLA refuse to reclassify it as a Motor Caravan, you end up with an untestable vehicle (Maybe you can take a annual trip to Mainland GB and get it tested? I don't know if that would be a way round the problem?).

You can also see some odd mismatches of categories... My VW LT46 Minibus was down as 4600Kg on the V5, but was taxed as a PLG (sub 3500kg). I know someone with virtually the same minibus from the same County Council (these were ex-school buses) and he had the VW LT35 (3500Kg) van but was taxed as a PHGV (result for him! lower tax, standard car driving license to operate).

 

[Pudsey Bear]

My other thinking on this is, isn't it time the weights and measures were updated to include the fact that vans are now heavier generally and that they have far better brakes and steering, this is basically a hang on from the old Thames 35cwt van limit days

 

[Thistle]

The fact they are confused about their own rules and how to apply them needs addressing and hopefully further litigation will do this. Having said that, our " van with windows" outside and " motor caravan" inside will stay as it is. No problem with it and no intention of jumping through new hoops!

Ironically the only problem I have had with my van with windows was from the unhelpful Steve at SVtech.
He would not assist in uprating my van from 3850kg to a higher weight despite his companies involvement in doing so for this particular van previously unless according to him it was a Motor Caravan on the V5 first.

It was total bollocks and fortunately Dee Thorne at Van weight engineering agreed, did all the paperwork was significantly cheaper and I had the updated v5 back within three weeks

And Dee issues a much nicer aluminium replacement weight plate instead of the stickers SVtech send!

 

[Millie Master]

Ironically the only problem I have had with my van with windows was from the unhelpful Steve at SVtech.
He would not assist in uprating my van from 3850kg to a higher weight despite his companies involvement in doing so for this particular van previously unless according to him it was a Motor Caravan on the V5 first.

It was total bollocks and fortunately Dee Thorne at Van weight engineering agreed, did all the paperwork was significantly cheaper and I had the updated v5 back within three weeks

And Dee issues a much nicer aluminium replacement weight plate instead of the stickers SVtech send!

@Thistle, Can you please share this nugget of information on the sister site motorhome builder as it is bound to be of valued interest to a great many converters?

Phil