'No overnight stays''

[Jazzbow]

Just for clarification please.
In Scotland there needs to be stated on the signage the by-law and the penalty otherwise it is non-enforcable, i.e you cannot be moved on?

We just got back from Langleeford in Northumberland National Park there were a few signs stating no overnight stays which we duly ignored. A guy knocks on our door with a warning that the park authorities would be along shortly to move us on. Nobody appeared but I was ready with my response, then it occurred to me that the 'rules' in England may be different!

Can anyone confirm the legal postion regarding this for both Scotland and England?

Thanks

 

[izwozral]

Anybody who doesn't identify himself & warns you that somebody will be along to 'move you on', can sling his hook as far as I am concerned. I doubt he will be saying it from the goodness of his heart, it will be more likely that he is a busybody jobsworth with nothing better to do than make himself feel important. Such people occupy no place in my life, nor should they yours imho.
Scotland is far more civilised & relaxed regarding wilding, England comes a very poor second. I haven't wilded in Wales or Ireland yet so can't comment on them but no doubt England would come a poor fourth, if I was qualified to comment.

 

[Robmac]

As far as I am aware, signs should be backed up by a TRO (Traffic Regulation Order) whether in England or Scotland, otherwise they are not enforceable.

 

[Deleted member 967]

It is against the Road Traffic Act to set up an encampment on the highway that includes lay-bys and roadside verges. Defining what constitutes an emcampment at present is a minefield.

Information supplied by Cumbria County Council
Wildcamping/Wildparking – Unauthoriesed encampments

On Highways land
On Highways land there is no provision to authorise encampments on public highways. All encampments will be deemed obstructions and therefore ‘not allowed’. The Highways Act allows for removal of unauthorised obstructions.

Common law rights to recover land from trespassers are also available to local authorities over land they occupy.

Local authorities can take action as landowners through civil actions against trespass using Civil Procedure Rules Part 55, heard in a County Court.

Local authorities have powers given by the Criminal Justice and Public Order 1994 ss77 and 78. These require cases to be brought in the Magistrates' Court.
DoE Circular 18/94 provides guidance to local authorities on the exercise of s77 powers

Police can also use their powers under s61 of the CJPOA, but again only in exceptional circumstances

Regarding other unauthorised encampments( ie. on private land) there is no specific legislative duty placed on local authorities to deal with unauthorised encampments.

Private land
On private land where an encampment is established with the consent of the landowner, District Councils may take planning enforcement action, or prosecute for running a caravan site without a site license.

The Police have parallel powers granted by s61 of the CJPOA. Action under s61 is normally much quicker than under s77, and the welfare considerations less onerous

Police Powers
The Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 added s61A and 62A into the CJPOA which give Police enhanced eviction powers in circumstances where there are suitable pitches on relevant sites to accommodate the caravans affected.


Measures for Enforcing against Pollution, Littering and Fly-Tipping

Water Resources Act 1991 (as amended by the Environment Act 1995) gives the Environment Agency powers to prosecute those found illegally depositing waste into controlled waters and causing a pollution offence.

Environmental Protection Act 1990 (as amended by the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005) makes fly-tipping a criminal offence with a maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and/or imprisonment up to 6 months (unlimited fine or imprisonment of up to 5 years if convicted at a Crown Court). The Government has asked the Environment Agency to vigorously prosecute any person found to be illegally disposing of waste, where they have evidence. The waste collection authority and the Environment Agency may remove fly-tipped waste and recover costs from those responsible for causing the offence. The Environment Agency has set up an emergency telephone hotline (0800 807060) for members of the public to notify them of fly tipping (and water pollution incidents). The National Fly-Tipping Prevention Group includes a number of national organisations.

Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 extends the offence of dropping litter on all types of land, including water, which is open to the air and to which the public have access.

Environment Protection Act 1990 (Part III) gives local authorities powers to act against statutory nuisances (prejudicial to health or a nuisance). Local authorities can serve an abatement notice, which can be appealed. Failure to comply with an abatement notice is an offence.

Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 extends the range of powers available to local authorities for dealing with fly tipping, for instance, by giving them powers to search and seize vehicles suspected of being used for fly tipping and to investigate incidents.

Highways Act 1980 s.149 allows the Highways Authority to serve notice on persons who have deposited items on a highway which constitute a nuisance.

So, no action unless you refuse to move. Then they have to seek powers to move you on. In all cases the Local Authority/Highway agent must call at a reasonable hour to discus your intentions.

What are Motor Vehicles? We must determine here, is the act of sleeping, cooking or eating in a parked motor vehicle CAMPING or PARKING?
Motorhomes are motor vehicles, in the same way as Coaches and HGVs with sleeping provision are Motor Vehicles, not Caravans. The primary legislation governing Motorhomes is that of Motor Vehicles. They should only be treated under that legislation, and not that of caravans.

Car Parks
The Department for Communities and Local Government has recently taken over responsibility for off-street parking on both private and public land from the Department for Transport.

There is currently a consultation underway at https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/parking-reform-tackling-unfair-practices. Send your comments in by 27 May 2015 11:45pm

 

[Jazzbow]

@ John T- not as straightforward as I had hoped! I was thinking along the lines of @robmac and the TRO's this is what has happened near us on east loch lomond.

 

[maingate]

Anybody who doesn't identify himself & warns you that somebody will be along to 'move you on', can sling his hook as far as I am concerned. I doubt he will be saying it from the goodness of his heart, it will be more likely that he is a busybody jobsworth with nothing better to do than make himself feel important. Such people occupy no place in my life, nor should they yours imho.
Scotland is far more civilised & relaxed regarding wilding, England comes a very poor second. I haven't wilded in Wales or Ireland yet so can't comment on them but no doubt England would come a poor fourth, if I was qualified to comment.

I disagree with your first point. It appears that he was parked on land which is part of a National Park. If true, then different rules apply. The person who spoke to the OP was probably just trying to be helpful as being local, he knew what was liable to occur.

I hope that if you are ever in a similar position, you do not fly off the handle with a stranger. Civility costs nothing. Lack of it reflects badly on all of us.

 

[Deleted member 967]

I disagree with your first point. It appears that he was parked on land which is part of a National Park. If true, then different rules apply. The person who spoke to the OP was probably just trying to be helpful as being local, he knew what was liable to occur.

I hope that if you are ever in a similar position, you do not fly off the handle with a stranger. Civility costs nothing. Lack of it reflects badly on all of us.

National Parks are classed as authorities same as any branch of local government. Yes, the National Parks have By-Laws that can affect your position but they also have to abide by the Criminal Justice and Public Order 1994 restrictions.

Civility costs nothing.

Respect ! Is a code adopted in France.

R espect nature
E lect not to park in groups
S elect appropriate places only
P refer local shops
E xpress yourself politely and discretely
C ommunicate with others
T ake up these commitments

 

[Deleted member 967]

As far as I am aware, signs should be backed up by a TRO (Traffic Regulation Order) whether in England or Scotland, otherwise they are not enforceable.

You are correct Rob, but some local authorities don't give any regard for the legislation. North Berwick's "No Motorhome Parking" signs have no legal backing, and the authority East Lothian Council acknowledged this after an FOI request. They erect signs to placate irate residents. They acknowledge that there are no logged incidents to justify such a ban, just anecdotal evidence. They failed to get a by-law through the Scottish Government to ban Motorhome parking and have so far not taken the next step of a legal TRO, as that would involve consultation before implementation. Instead they just erected frightener signs.

A TRO is a civil matter. A By-Law creates a criminal offence. Aberdeen City also had a By-Law rejected by the Scottish Government but the council has instructed its officers to continue to pursue that matter. (last info on this was February this year). That By-Law would have made it a criminal offence to use or occupy a Motorhome/Campervan in parts of Aberdeen City between 6pm and 6am. (this amendment was proposed to Aberdeen City by Waitrose although they don't have a store in Aberdeen).

 

[Deleted member 967]

@ John T- not as straightforward as I had hoped! I was thinking along the lines of @robmac and the TRO's this is what has happened near us on east loch lomond.

We at the Motorhome Tourism Organisation responded formally to the proposal to extend the LL&TTNPA bylaw. I have just returned from Spain so will have to check for any new developments.

 

[izwozral]

I disagree with your first point. It appears that he was parked on land which is part of a National Park. If true, then different rules apply. The person who spoke to the OP was probably just trying to be helpful as being local, he knew what was liable to occur.

I hope that if you are ever in a similar position, you do not fly off the handle with a stranger. Civility costs nothing. Lack of it reflects badly on all of us.

I tend not to' fly off the handle' with strangers, it isn't part of my personality. Firstly, I would enquire in what capacity or interest they have in that particular spot that I am parked. Secondly, I would tell them that i intend to park for one night only & when I leave they will find no trace that I had ever been there.
Thirdly, if the person spoke with a nasal twang & said 'you can't do that' emulating a Paul Whitehouse character & the said person is unable to provide a valid excuse why I can't park there, then they can sling their hook. If I was parked 250 yards from someone's house in a rural spot & they came with that attitude they would get a negative response from me.
We all have to behave responsibly when wilding & that means choosing spots that don't infringe peoples rights of access or wilding in protected areas etc but we do have a right to park where other vehicles can park. I tend not to wild where there are signs saying 'No Overnight Camping' because I don't want to be disturbed in the middle of the night by a copper.

In conclusion, I am 5' 7", the wrong side of 60 & not in the best of health, therefore, diplomacy is always my first choice simply because most people could beat the crap out of me!

 

[Obanboy666]

Have to say if i never go to a poi and find a sign stating no parking be it legal or illegal I would move on.
It's not worth the hassle and possible disturbance during the night.
I would also move on if approached by anyone, official or not telling me it's out of order to park up. Pretty obvious I would was not welcome.

 

[izwozral]

I truly believe that some people do not like to see others enjoying themselves or that they have the means to live a free-er life style. I don't know whether it boils down to jealousy or just plain miserableness. More & more aspects of our lives are being controlled & it appears to me that if you are not part of the greater masses, then you are an oddity or you need to be 'brought into line'.

I think I read a book once that predicted this insidious creep of control - I think it was around 1984 that I read it. If only I could remember what it was called

 

[Jazzbow]

I wouldn't be impolite either- I think the chap was a farmer from down the road- possibly the same one that peeped his horn at 4.15 am! We were in the back of beyond, not bothering a soul. I just wondered what legalities were involved and if I could refuse a request to move on by a park ranger.
We were here: 55.49642, -2.07433 (or somewhere on this road there were a few spots)

 

[Canalsman]

I wouldn't be impolite either- I think the chap was a farmer from down the road- possibly the same one that peeped his horn at 4.15 am! We were in the back of beyond, not bothering a soul. I just wondered what legalities were involved and if I could refuse a request to move on by a park ranger.
We were here: 55.49642, -2.07433 (or somewhere on this road there were a few spots)

This is a spot in the Wild Camp POIs.

Can you tell me if there were signs at this location?

The other posters are correct that there are bye-laws that apply to National Parks that restrict overnight parking in some cases.

I would think the chances of being moved on at this spot are very limited, and the farmer may have had earlier experience with thoughtless people overnighting.

I have only once been advised that I should not be parking overnight, and it was acceptable to the complainant just to acknowledge politely what was said and promise to move on in the morning ...

 

[AIKIDOMO]

Looking at where you were, not too far from a dirty great campsite at Woolar maybe he thought why don't you go there. You were in the middle of nowhere, he might be worried about his sheep as well. I would have stayed as well as you were not really doing anyone or any thing any harm.

 

[ricc]

most of the legistlation referred to earlier is aimed at groups of "travellers" who travel in groups park up for weeks and generally make a mess, any enforcement requires an application to a court. the process is a nighmare for private landowners.

off of council carparks , in the absence of a properly signed tro
theres nothing in place to allow any official or officer to instantly demand any one move on from a safe parking place. or to impose fines or parking fees.

railway property or national parks may well have some different rules.
..but in the first instance youve got to be unlucky enough to be caught by an official (who has actually got some powers) , then you can start bullshiting about just stopped to watch the sunset, have a cup of tea, being too tired to drive safely, got a miagraine so need to rest for a few hours or whatever

 

[yorkslass]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe any sign, to be lawful, has to have details of the relevant legislation , which is found on a metal plate on the back of the sign. ???

 

[trevskoda]

good heavens all those years i have been boiling a 12 volt kettle in my car and having 40 winks making me a crim,should i hand myself in or is someone here going to dob me in. The worlds gone mad.

 

[jake]

oTHER HANDY STAYEMENT VAN has broken down & waiting for AA or some other garage to arrive but not expected to be fixed:idea-007: until morning when I shall be on my way as soon as possible!:idea-007:

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Blame the P***Ys the paranoia is all about them coming to an area and setting up camp. The locals can get shirty about you as anyone in a van is one of those . They do not realise you are a respectable person ?????.. I could always say sorry, but I am out of driving and duty time so I must park up for an 8 hour break. Mine is an HGV after all. The other thing is if I parked there and left the van to go to a B&B across the road could and would they complain.
The thing is when I have locked down for the night other than the heater exhaust, there is no way anybody can say we are in there, no light and no noise. Just a parked van.