new hybrid battery

[rugbyken]

i have a hybrid system 100A lithium & 160A lead carbon fitted with guidance & technical input from david it is superb but this is a german system that is almost modular not found a price yet but looks interesting

 

[Wooie1958]

BOS LE300 Lithium Extension Battery System

The LE300 Lithium Extension Battery is no conventional Lithium Battery! BOS LE300 Lithium Extension Battery attaches on to your existing Lead Acid Battery

www.force4.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 94473]

These modules look expensive for the capacity you get i.e. you need 4 BOS LE300 modules paralleled to reach 100ah and you can only pull 50amps total from the LifePO4 combination. For less money you can make lead acid habitation batteries redundant altogether with 2 x 120ah LifePO4's a decent B2B charger and a battery maintainer for the starter battery. That will easily allow 200 amps draw and your not wasting energy charging by pushing it through lead batteries with high internal resistance.

I guess this works best with boating when you've already invested in numerous AGM's and want to preserve your investment with the hybrid approach.

 

[wildebus]

It is quite a good system, but rather pricey. It looks pretty.
What seems a little odd to me is there is no primary/secondary type of module - so if you have more than one of these, you end up duplicating whatever the lead-lithium interface control (whatever they have that does the same thing as the VSDR Lithium Controller you have) on every battery.
If you look at most modular Lithium battery systems, they tend to have a main 'intelligenr' Lithium battery system and then you get additional plug-in Lithium battery modules to increase the overall capacity.

For more info on the LE300 in use, here is a Hymer link - https://www.hymer.com/de/en/models/technology-innovation/smart-battery-system
I cannot deny I find the logic of this setup incorrect and the way your/my Hybrid setup makes much more sense in how the overall battery storage is provided and replenished.

These modules look expensive for the capacity you get i.e. you need 4 BOS LE300 modules paralleled to reach 100ah and you can only pull 50amps total from the LifePO4 combination. For less money you can make lead acid habitation batteries redundant altogether with 2 x 120ah LifePO4's a decent B2B charger and a battery maintainer for the starter battery. That will easily allow 200 amps draw and your not wasting energy charging by pushing it through lead batteries with high internal resistance.

I guess this works best with boating when you've already invested in numerous AGM's and want to preserve your investment with the hybrid approach.

For even less money, you can preserve your investment in your AGMs (or whatever Lead Acid batteries types you have) and have (IMO) a better setup than fitting a pair of Lithium's

 

[Deleted member 94473]

It is quite a good system, but rather pricey. It looks pretty.
What seems a little odd to me is there is no primary/secondary type of module - so if you have more than one of these, you end up duplicating whatever the lead-lithium interface control (whatever they have that does the same thing as the VSDR Lithium Controller you have) on every battery.
If you look at most modular Lithium battery systems, they tend to have a main 'intelligenr' Lithium battery system and then you get additional plug-in Lithium battery modules to increase the overall capacity.

For more info on the LE300 in use, here is a Hymer link - https://www.hymer.com/de/en/models/technology-innovation/smart-battery-system
I cannot deny I find the logic of this setup incorrect and the way your/my Hybrid setup makes much more sense in how the overall battery storage is provided and replenished.


For even less money, you can preserve your investment in your AGMs (or whatever Lead Acid batteries types you have) and have (IMO) a better setup than fitting a pair of Lithium's

Disagree I've had both and the faster charge rate, deep discharge and peace of mind that your van can be laid up in the winter without battery sulphation & plenty of capacity to keep the lead starter battery topped up is a massive plus. If you look after a LiFePO4 you can get thousands of cycles so better long term investment (if your aiming for long term.)

 

[wildebus]

Disagree I've had both and the faster charge rate, deep discharge and peace of mind that your van can be laid up in the winter without battery sulphation & plenty of capacity to keep the lead starter battery topped up is a massive plus. If you look after a LiFePO4 you can get thousands of cycles so better long term investment (if your aiming for long term.)

But I bet you haven't had the combination of the two working together

 

[Fisherman]

It is quite a good system, but rather pricey. It looks pretty.
What seems a little odd to me is there is no primary/secondary type of module - so if you have more than one of these, you end up duplicating whatever the lead-lithium interface control (whatever they have that does the same thing as the VSDR Lithium Controller you have) on every battery.
If you look at most modular Lithium battery systems, they tend to have a main 'intelligenr' Lithium battery system and then you get additional plug-in Lithium battery modules to increase the overall capacity.

For more info on the LE300 in use, here is a Hymer link - https://www.hymer.com/de/en/models/technology-innovation/smart-battery-system
I cannot deny I find the logic of this setup incorrect and the way your/my Hybrid setup makes much more sense in how the overall battery storage is provided and replenished.


For even less money, you can preserve your investment in your AGMs (or whatever Lead Acid batteries types you have) and have (IMO) a better setup than fitting a pair of Lithium's

Got to say David surprised at last paragraph.
But as I always take your advice I won’t disagree, just a bit confused by it.

 

[wildebus]

Got to say David surprised at last paragraph.
But as I always take your advice I won’t disagree, just a bit confused by it.

When you look at the overall cost/usable Amphour, a hybrid system can give you the most affordable and practical battery system, combining a key benefit of Lithium (the speed and efficiency of recharging) with the significantly lower cost of Lead Batteries to give extended capacity when needed.

What you do lose with a Hybrid system over pure Lithium is the significant weight saving. That in itself can be an overriding reason to go Lithium for many. But for others, weight is less critical. My MH is 3850Kg but if I had to take it back down to 3500Kg, the chances are I would reluctantly loose the Lead Batteries for the weight reduction, but as I can carry that extra weight at the moment .....

The perfect example of a weight-irrelevant setup is a canal boat. Imagine instead of filling the hull with bricks for ballast, you replaced with cheap Lead Acid Batteries, then added in a couple of Lithium Batteries that provided the normal kind of use - giving the boat owner all the advantages of Lithium technology, but on those occasions where he had a big but short-term power demand that a pair of Lithiums could not provide (they are current limited) he could call on the bank of Lead to come in to make up the deficit. Then when that demand was over, the lead would recharge whilst cruising ready for the next time while the Lithium will have fast-charge priority to continue providing that regular constant demand for lights, TV, etc. And all the above totally automatically - the user does not need to do anything other than turn on the appliances he wants to use.
Yes you can do the same with all Lithium, but the cost can be prohibitive to be able to provide that same level of battery bank energy (I have 300Ah of Lead Carbon batteries in my Motorhome. They are excellent batteries but all three together still cost 3/4 of just one of the PolarMax 100Ah Lithium Batteries that you and I both have.
Those 300Ah of batteries will give me over 200Ah of usable power so over double that of usable power from the Lithium batteries, but adding in Lithium AS WELL means I get all the benefits of Lithium day-to-day but if I need extended power, I have the Lead to call on. Or rather, the system calls on the Lead seamlessly as the whole process is automatic and the user doesn't have to think about it or make/break connections to different systems.

 

[trevskoda]

I have had lipo torch batteries just die for no good reason and without warning, I would not want that in a van esp the price of them.
Battery tec will and is moving on and soon we will have better.

 

[Deleted member 94473]

But I bet you haven't had the combination of the two working together

No because it kinda defeats the object i.e. wasting energy trying to push it back and forth between batteries when in the main the lead acid is much more inneficient due to high internal resistance, (especially as you approach full charge or if the battery has sulphated somewhat) then you've got further waste due to high self disharge and the best you can expect from a 120ah agm is half that capacity before recharging is required.

I'm always off grid so the extra efficiency has proven fruitful not to mention reduction in weight.

 

[Fisherman]

When you look at the overall cost/usable Amphour, a hybrid system can give you the most affordable and practical battery system, combining a key benefit of Lithium (the speed and efficiency of recharging) with the significantly lower cost of Lead Batteries to give extended capacity when needed.

What you do lose with a Hybrid system over pure Lithium is the significant weight saving. That in itself can be an overriding reason to go Lithium for many. But for others, weight is less critical. My MH is 3850Kg but if I had to take it back down to 3500Kg, the chances are I would reluctantly loose the Lead Batteries for the weight reduction, but as I can carry that extra weight at the moment .....

The perfect example of a weight-irrelevant setup is a canal boat. Imagine instead of filling the hull with bricks for ballast, you replaced with cheap Lead Acid Batteries, then added in a couple of Lithium Batteries that provided the normal kind of use - giving the boat owner all the advantages of Lithium technology, but on those occasions where he had a big but short-term power demand that a pair of Lithiums could not provide (they are current limited) he could call on the bank of Lead to come in to make up the deficit. Then when that demand was over, the lead would recharge whilst cruising ready for the next time while the Lithium will have fast-charge priority to continue providing that regular constant demand for lights, TV, etc. And all the above totally automatically - the user does not need to do anything other than turn on the appliances he wants to use.
Yes you can do the same with all Lithium, but the cost can be prohibitive to be able to provide that same level of battery bank energy (I have 300Ah of Lead Carbon batteries in my Motorhome. They are excellent batteries but all three together still cost 3/4 of just one of the PolarMax 100Ah Lithium Batteries that you and I both have.
Those 300Ah of batteries will give me over 200Ah of usable power so over double that of usable power from the Lithium batteries, but adding in Lithium AS WELL means I get all the benefits of Lithium day-to-day but if I need extended power, I have the Lead to call on. Or rather, the system calls on the Lead seamlessly as the whole process is automatic and the user doesn't have to think about it or make/break connections to different systems.

I see where you are coming from David. But with an initial payload of only 385kg on my new van conversion, less auto box, larger 180bhp engine, plus other things, weight is a critical factor for me, also something you did not mention was storage, on a van conversion that to is critical. So I reckon my two polar max 100ah lithium is the best solution for us. Another point though, as lithium gets cheaper this opinion may well become pointless in future. So basically the lithium battery is the workhorse, supported by the lead only when required. To be honest David, I would rather have a third lithium battery, but of course “initial“ cost must be taken into consideration.

 

[wildebus]

I see where you are coming from David. But with an initial payload of only 385kg on my new van conversion, less auto box, larger 180bhp engine, plus other things, weight is a critical factor for me, also something you did not mention was storage, on a van conversion that to is critical. So I reckon my two polar max 100ah lithium is the best solution for us. Another point though, as lithium gets cheaper this opinion may well become pointless in future. So basically the lithium battery is the workhorse, supported by the lead only when required. To be honest David, I would rather have a third lithium battery, but of course “initial“ cost must be taken into consideration.

for your new van, I would not have even suggested a Hybrid system due to weight and space considerations. It is not right for every situation for sure.

As far as the Lithium+Lead combo goes, in fact Lead is the workhorse, kicking in on heavy demand and staying in the background otherwise. To give an example, in my van (300Ah Lead + 200Ah Lithium), the lead essentially does near enough nothing most of the time, but when I put on a large load - such as the Microwave (1300W), maybe the Induction Hobs (2 x 500W) or the Electric Water Heater (850W), the Lead joins the party and provides power alongside the Lithium, and then when the load is removed, the lead goes back to the background and the Lithium carries on running the Lights, the TV, the phone chargers, etc.
When you have these Heavy but very occasional loads, it would work out very expensive to spec up additional Lithium just for that intermittant demand, or to cover those occasional times when you may need extended battery power as you are off-grid with poor charging for longer.

It is not just the cost/available Ah that maybe needs to be considered, but the cost/USED Ah that is important when working out the value. If you were to get a 3rd Lithium to cover that occasional need and that extra capacity was called into use say 10 times a year, that additional battery investment is rather large.
Many people do the comparision of battery types on the cost/available Ah over the service life and that is why Lithium always seems to come out very well. But when you need to get more batteries just to provide a higher potential current, or you have a service life well in excess of what you actually need (so where is the investment benefit of 10 years on a Lithium over 5 years on a Lead costing 1/4 the price but still offering 2/3rd the capacity?)
And then you get some saying they never charge above 80% and never discharge below 20% to extend the service life of their battery? fine, but instantly the amount of use they get from their battery compared to someone who goes 100% to 0% is nearly halved. They will need to virtually double the service life of their battery to make doing that worthwhile - and will the electronic components of the battery last twice the time? is it worth trying to double the life when the chances are when the battery is still within its normal service life a replacement will be cheaper anyway, or the user will have replaced their van or given up motorhoming entirely?

 

[wildebus]

No because it kinda defeats the object i.e. wasting energy trying to push it back and forth between batteries when in the main the lead acid is much more inneficient due to high internal resistance, (especially as you approach full charge or if the battery has sulphated somewhat) then you've got further waste due to high self disharge and the best you can expect from a 120ah agm is half that capacity before recharging is required.

I'm always off grid so the extra efficiency has proven fruitful not to mention reduction in weight.

I am not going to argue but I don't agree with most of your points

 

[Fisherman]

for your new van, I would not have even suggested a Hybrid system due to weight and space considerations. It is not right for every situation for sure.

As far as the Lithium+Lead combo goes, in fact Lead is the workhorse, kicking in on heavy demand and staying in the background otherwise. To give an example, in my van (300Ah Lead + 200Ah Lithium), the lead essentially does near enough nothing most of the time, but when I put on a large load - such as the Microwave (1300W), maybe the Induction Hobs (2 x 500W) or the Electric Water Heater (850W), the Lead joins the party and provides power alongside the Lithium, and then when the load is removed, the lead goes back to the background and the Lithium carries on running the Lights, the TV, the phone chargers, etc.
When you have these Heavy but very occasional loads, it would work out very expensive to spec up additional Lithium just for that intermittant demand, or to cover those occasional times when you may need extended battery power as you are off-grid with poor charging for longer.

It is not just the cost/available Ah that maybe needs to be considered, but the cost/USED Ah that is important when working out the value. If you were to get a 3rd Lithium to cover that occasional need and that extra capacity was called into use say 10 times a year, that additional battery investment is rather large.
Many people do the comparision of battery types on the cost/available Ah over the service life and that is why Lithium always seems to come out very well. But when you need to get more batteries just to provide a higher potential current, or you have a service life well in excess of what you actually need (so where is the investment benefit of 10 years on a Lithium over 5 years on a Lead costing 1/4 the price but still offering 2/3rd the capacity?)
And then you get some saying they never charge above 80% and never discharge below 20% to extend the service life of their battery? fine, but instantly the amount of use they get from their battery compared to someone who goes 100% to 0% is nearly halved. They will need to virtually double the service life of their battery to make doing that worthwhile - and will the electronic components of the battery last twice the time? is it worth trying to double the life when the chances are when the battery is still within its normal service life a replacement will be cheaper anyway, or the user will have replaced their van or given up motorhoming entirely?

I may have used the wrong phraseology David. I meant that the lithium is used all of the time, and lead only coming when required.

 

[Deleted member 94473]

I am not going to argue but I don't agree with most of your points

That's ok we're all entitled to an opinion. My setup for anyone interested. https://docs.google.com/document/d/...ouid=113665482127948919541&rtpof=true&sd=true

Made the Tracer mains charger redundant as got an amazing ebay deal on a used Abso one and replaced the 60ah breakers for Durite one's as one became unreliable.

 

[wildebus]

I may have used the wrong phraseology David. I meant that the lithium is used all of the time, and lead only coming when required.

Yup, that is right. Lead in the background and comes on to help with the heavy loads, and also comes in if Lithium gets depleted (sounds like Star Trek!).
here the Green is the Lithium SOC and the orange is the Lead SOC. Solar is rubbish this time of year, especially for a van parked north of a tall house, so this is off-grid with no charging.

Lithium providing the power until around the 5th when it drops to a point where the Lead essentially takes over for the next few days until I get round to plugging in.
Without the Lead, the van would be out of power on the 5th. If I had one more Lithium Battery, it still would not have taken me as far as the lead allowed me to go before I plugged in, and would have cost more money (and I didn't even have to plug in yet anyway - the lead was only down to 50%. Lead Carbon Batteries you can take down much lower without damage).
So that is the advantage of Lithium PLUS Lead. And we still get that massive benefit of Lithium Fast Recharge compared to the Lead. (This is where I really don't get a key aspect of the LE300 system that kicked this thread off and the Hymer implementation. If you did have a situation where you have a Hybrid system, and you used both Lithium and Lead capacities due to extended demand, such as the graph above shows, why on earth recharge the less efficent battery first? Lithium recharges faster and converts more charging current into stored capacity so surely you focus on that primarily?)

 

[Fisherman]

Yup, that is right. Lead in the background and comes on to help with the heavy loads, and also comes in if Lithium gets depleted (sounds like Star Trek!).
here the Green is the Lithium SOC and the orange is the Lead SOC. Solar is rubbish this time of year, especially for a van parked north of a tall house, so this is off-grid with no charging.
View attachment 116581
Lithium providing the power until around the 5th when it drops to a point where the Lead essentially takes over for the next few days until I get round to plugging in.
Without the Lead, the van would be out of power on the 5th. If I had one more Lithium Battery, it still would not have taken me as far as the lead allowed me to go before I plugged in, and would have cost more money (and I didn't even have to plug in yet anyway - the lead was only down to 50%. Lead Carbon Batteries you can take down much lower without damage).
So that is the advantage of Lithium PLUS Lead. And we still get that massive benefit of Lithium Fast Recharge compared to the Lead. (This is where I really don't get a key aspect of the LE300 system that kicked this thread off and the Hymer implementation. If you did have a situation where you have a Hybrid system, and you used both Lithium and Lead capacities due to extended demand, such as the graph above shows, why on earth recharge the less efficent battery first? Lithium recharges faster and converts more charging current into stored capacity so surely you focus on that primarily?)

Beam me up Scotty