Llanddulas "New signs"

[malagaoth]

My source is official council minutes, and complaints by residents tell a totally different picture

Im I to assume from that that the council minutes list the complaints which didnt happen?

surely if they listed actual complaints then it means that the facility was to some extent being abused and some one was complaining about it?

It seems apparent from a post made here in 2005 that at least one local was very opposed to motorhomes (sorry motor caravans) using the carpark at night

"Don;t park near the bungalow" - Roifromnwales

 

[Channa]

Best will in the world Andrew....
Having personally spent lots of time close to Llanddulas..

The car park has been used for a long while by folks in motorhome/camper vans and the dogging community let alone the folks smoking herbal substances etc....
Something of a mystery why anyone would want to spend time there BUT hey ho.....
Signs are up....
'They' don't want us there
Cool ill spend my cash elsewhere.... Not a, problem

I checked council minutes provided by Tom of Maureentom and nothing there to really cause consternation.

I worked most of the sites in that neck and had a seasonal in Towyn er in doors loved it I hated it a community service order

I often visited Llandullas to either cycle to Llandudno or drop a lead when the tide was in....A couple of occasions it was apparent the dirty rain mac brigade cottaging around the toilets ...there was a fulltimer often. someone posted a pic of his van here in an old Holdsworth Renault the bloke was OK just down in lifes battles ...Only thing I saw that could be an issue.

Local MP Darren Millar had issues with anything not on a site and I am convinced his strings pulled by local site owners I don't bet but would place a wager

Whether a decent stop or not is subjective but the council have behaved improper ...so it begs the question where does it stop ?

One of our members got a ticket and contested and it was turned over ..Another member then decided off his own back to make an official representation to the council madness in my opinion so perhaps provoked the new signs sheer madness

I agree we don't help ourselves at times, and whilst llangullas not to everyones taste there a few principals at stake.

Channa

 

[mistericeman]

I checked council minutes provided by Tom of Maureentom and nothing there to really cause consternation.

I worked most of the sites in that neck and had a seasonal in Towyn er in doors loved it I hated it a community service order

I often visited Llandullas to either cycle to Llandudno or drop a lead when the tide was in....A couple of occasions it was apparent the dirty rain mac brigade cottaging around the toilets ...there was a fulltimer often. someone posted a pic of his van here in an old Holdsworth Renault the bloke was OK just down in lifes battles ...Only thing I saw that could be an issue.

Local MP Darren Millar had issues with anything not on a site and I am convinced his strings pulled by local site owners I don't bet but would place a wager

Whether a decent stop or not is subjective but the council have behaved improper ...so it begs the question where does it stop ?

One of our members got a ticket and contested and it was turned over ..Another member then decided off his own back to make an official representation to the council madness in my opinion so perhaps provoked the new signs sheer madness

I agree we don't help ourselves at times, and whilst llangullas not to everyones taste there a few principals at stake.

Channa

I just prefer to lay my head where I'm wanted OR at least tolerated...
IF somewhere doesn't want my 'pound' then fine....
I'll spend it somewhere that does....

I truly wonder how many folks quimming about ignoring signs because it's their 'right'
Would be accepting of a bunch of vans/motorhomes in their locale...
I'm reckoning a heap of NIMBY...

 

[Channa]

I just prefer to lay my head where I'm wanted OR at least tolerated...
IF somewhere doesn't want my 'pound' then fine....
I'll spend it somewhere that does....

I truly wonder how many folks quimming about ignoring signs because it's their 'right'
Would be accepting of a bunch of vans/motorhomes in their locale...
I'm reckoning a heap of NIMBY...

To be honest I question peoples assumption that they spend money ...load of folk here stock up at St lidl or Aldi and I suspect don't spend a penny seems a pre occupation to some folk so I don't buy the I spend money argument at all ....these pages suggest people don't

Lets get this straight, I mentioned what is good for goose is good for the gander you chose to ignore that bit if you are suggesting we shouldn't question dubious illegal signage I would be interested in a logical reason why ?

Channa

 

[mistericeman]

To be honest I question peoples assumption that they spend money ...load of folk here stock up at St lidl or Aldi and I suspect don't spend a penny seems a pre occupation to some folk so I don't buy the I spend money argument at all ....these pages suggest people don't

Lets get this straight, I mentioned what is good for goose is good for the gander you chose to ignore that bit if you are suggesting we shouldn't question dubious illegal signage I would be interested in a logical reason why ?

Channa

Question away Andrew....
In fairness for everyone like 'us' that enjoys eating out at local cafes/restaurants/drinking local brews at local hostelries....
There will be others that bring the last grain of salt etc from home....

As far as 'dubious' signage is concerned.... If there are signs there then obviously someone doesn't want you there...
I prefer to stop where there arent any signs...
Plenty of places if you are bothered to look AND don't plaster your discovery all over facebook/t'interweb etc.

 

[malagaoth]

To be honest I question peoples assumption that they spend money

I agree, the average spend by a motor caravan owner in a town he visits is probably very small.

I would turn my attention to the other point made by Mistericeman, that is how accepting would all the nice middle class (in my experience motor caravaners are overwhelmingly middle class) people here like it if their local beauty spot was habitually full of a freeloaders parked up for days in their motorcaravans - aside from the eyesore there is the matter of the grey waste quitetly dripping from underneath and trickling into the undergrowth, the dog fouling, the barbeque trays (yeah I know, no one here would do any of that).

I have a few simple rules which I try very hard to obey when I wild camp.

1) if there is a "no over night parking " sign I move on - if its written in crayon on cardboard and has spelling mistakes I move on (certainly wouldnt be pawing all over the internet to make sure the council dotted the "I"s and crossed the "T"s

2) unless its some where very remote if some one is already there I move on

3) I park discretely

4) I arrive late and leave early

5) I do everything possible to limit my impact on the civic amenity of those that live there

 

[alcam]

To be honest I question peoples assumption that they spend money ...load of folk here stock up at St lidl or Aldi and I suspect don't spend a penny seems a pre occupation to some folk so I don't buy the I spend money argument at all ....these pages suggest people don't

Lets get this straight, I mentioned what is good for goose is good for the gander you chose to ignore that bit if you are suggesting we shouldn't question dubious illegal signage I would be interested in a logical reason why ?

Channa

Wasting your time asking your questions . If a sign is clearly not legal and I want to park there I will . I , as a rule , don't go out to break the law . If I get caught red handed (ticket wise) I just pay up . If ticket is wrong I appeal and , with 1 exception , don't pay .
I know of at least one popular spot where the signs are put up to keep the locals happy . They are not legal and nobody gets a ticket . The council are happy with the business . I'm pretty sure there are many more of the same .This system works well and everybody is moderately happy .

 

[malagaoth]

I know of at least one popular spot where the signs are put up to keep the locals happy . They are not legal and nobody gets a ticket

this is obviously a town with some particularly stupid locals!

If I was annoyed by people parking where there were no signs I would be doubly annoyed at people parking where there are signs and the council doing nothing about it!

 

[alcam]

this is obviously a town with some particularly stupid locals!

If I was annoyed by people parking where there were no signs I would be doubly annoyed at people parking where there are signs and the council doing nothing about it!

That seems like a lot of annoyance !
It's obviously a cosmetic exercise . Politicians/public servants do , at times , make an effort to keep things working whilst not upsetting anybody . In this case it seems to work . I would , of course , accept that some people go out of their way to be upset at almost everything .

 

[maureenandtom]

I've had a fair bit of correspondence with Conwy Council. From memory – it was published here so we can all look it up – there were less than half a dozen complaints about us in the whole of Conwy council admin area. Only one, or maybe two, was about disposal of waste. There were no complaints at all until the signs went up and the complaints were about our presence – effectively complaints that we were ignoring signs. It seems the locals only became angry (and only one or two of them) when we became seen as lawbreakers.

Give the council freedom to erect what signs they want and they can turn any activity into a seemingy illegal one.

Taxed with the non-complaints record at Llanddullas the council came up with two reasons (ntohing to do with complaints) why we should not park there.

Impact on local businesses and requirement to provide facilities.



delete imdb account

I made a formal proposal to Conwy Council, addressing these two reasons, that a one year trial should be implemented, at a location of their choice, but proposing Llanddulas, in the same way as Fleetwood last year.

I've not had a response. If they've put up new signs then I suppose I needn't expect one.= new signs is answer enough.

 

[Channa]

I've had a fair bit of correspondence with Conwy Council. From memory – it was published here so we can all look it up – there were less than half a dozen complaints about us in the whole of Conwy council admin area. Only one, or maybe two, was about disposal of waste. There were no complaints at all until the signs went up and the complaints were about our presence – effectively complaints that we were ignoring signs. It seems the locals only became angry (and only one or two of them) when we became seen as lawbreakers.

Give the council freedom to erect what signs they want and they can turn any activity into a seemingy illegal one.

Taxed with the non-complaints record at Llanddullas the council came up with two reasons (ntohing to do with complaints) why we should not park there.

Impact on local businesses and requirement to provide facilities.



delete imdb account

I made a formal proposal to Conwy Council, addressing these two reasons, that a one year trial should be implemented, at a location of their choice, but proposing Llanddulas, in the same way as Fleetwood last year.

I've not had a response. If they've put up new signs then I suppose I needn't expect one.= new signs is answer enough.

Proof as if it were needed that the allegations have little substance...I suspect there are many councils citing untruths but it seems some folk think we should just accept it...that of course is exactly what they want.

Channa

 

[malagaoth]

There were no complaints at all until the signs went up and the complaints were about our presence – effectively complaints that we were ignoring signs. It seems the locals only became angry (and only one or two of them) when we became seen as lawbreakers.

This is entirely in keeping with what I would expect - but diametrically opposed to what Alcam reports about elsewhere - where the local were pacified by signs even though they were ignored with impunity!

Every official complaint is probably representative of a great many disgruntled rate payers (if a TV programme watched by millions gets more than a handful of complaints its regarded as a serious issue) so "half a dozen" complaints might represent a great deal of upset.

I have never complained to the council about anything but a great deal of what the council do or allow to be done upsets me greatly

 

[maureenandtom]

Can I suggest, without starting any great war, that we must not assume that a complaint has been probably been made. That any such imaginary complaint has no substance and should be disregarded when making regulations affecting people's freedoms.

And … if the council is doing something you disapprove of – but don't tell them of your disapproval – then that council is entitled to assume that, in fact, it does have your approval?

There are never any complaints about us. In the whole of Conwy (not just Llanddulas) there were half a dozen complaints over a three year period. Less than two a year. The public outrage we imagine just isn't there. Even when provoked by fake news (remember the local newspaper publishing a fake (stock) photo of our rubbish near Keswick?) there is never a substantial negative response from the public.

Only in surveys promoting ( they call it consulting) PSPOs do we see anything like it – and even then only when led into it by questions like – Do you agree with allowing motorhomes to camp at the roadside for long periods? How is anyone going to answer that?

 

[alcam]

This is entirely in keeping with what I would expect - but diametrically opposed to what Alcam reports about elsewhere - where the local were pacified by signs even though they were ignored with impunity!

Every official complaint is probably representative of a great many disgruntled rate payers (if a TV programme watched by millions gets more than a handful of complaints its regarded as a serious issue) so "half a dozen" complaints might represent a great deal of upset.

I have never complained to the council about anything but a great deal of what the council do or allow to be done upsets me greatly

I was surmising there were no complaints , maybe there are loads !
As long as the signs are non enforceable I'll carry on parking there . I should add I never park where somebody would have a good reason to moan , in front of there house etc . Even though it may be legal to park there .
If people are put off by these signs then , selfishly , I'm very pleased .
Would people , who are put off by these signs whilst in their campers , park their cars there ?

 

[maureenandtom]

Mostly from memory. But it's all on here somewhere so accessible if we look it up.

The last appeal we know about from one of our members was upheld, eventually, on the grounds that the signage was inadequate. The council isn't in the business of issuing PCNs and then cancelling them unless it sees that an appeal to the appeals tribunal would be successful. The council will tell you that each PCN is a standalone thing and that withdrawal of one on the grounds of inadequate signage is not a reason to stop issuing PCNs.

Channa mentioned the Lendal Bridge fiasco and he could have mentioned the Preston Friargate Bus Lane scandal too. In both of these it was held that the council had no power to issued PCNs because their signage was inadequate. Both councils huffed and puffed and would take legal advice but both council had to repay millions.

In my opinion Conwy council does not want Llanddullas appeals to go to the tribunal because it fears that it, too, will have to repay those PCNs issued and which were paid.

I have some information on that. I know how many PCNs have been issued and how many cancelled. Between Aug 2015 (when the signs went up) and Nov 2017 there were:

Issued – 77
Cancelled – 23 (I'm guessing, on appeal)
Paid - 49 (I'm guessing, not appealed)

and one was written off – I've no idea why and four remained, at that time – Dec 2017 – unpaid.

The Conwy off-street parking order is unusual. It's badly written but that's not unusual. What is unusual is that the off-street parking order does not bar motorhomes or motorcarvans. What it does is permit parking by motor cars and it provides a definition of what a motor car is. It assumes that motorhomes do not fit the definition of a motor car. Your PCN will therefore claim that you were parked in a parking space not designated for that class of vehcicle. Not claiming that you were motorhome illegally parking overnight.

The council is partly right but there are, probably, plenty of motorhomes which will fit into their definition of a motor car. If your motorhome is under something like 3100 kg – look at their order – then, by their order, it is permitted to park. Overnight or any time.

Sorry this got so long. There may be some point to banning motorhomes from Llanddullas. The car park might be for sale. The council has considered a sale. This, taken from a report into parking commissioned by the council.

 

[landoboguy]

The signs at Llandullas have been painted over, not sure by who but was done about July I think.
a was there 3 weeks back and 2 MH were on the car park and 2 parked next to toilet block.

I went again 2 weeks back and as I was there 6 Travellers caravans complete with kids/generators/propane and tippers pulled on and set up 9pm while I watched. They were still there 5 days ago.

 

[landoboguy]

The signs at Llandullas have been painted over, not sure by who but was done about July I think.
a was there 3 weeks back and 2 MH were on the car park and 2 parked next to toilet block.

I went again 2 weeks back and as I was there 6 Travellers caravans complete with kids/generators/propane and tippers pulled on and set up 9pm while I watched. They were still there 5 days ago.

Travellers still at Llandullas 27 Oct, so thats a month at least. And here a pic of the signs been painted over.

 

[antiquesam]

Travellers still at Llandullas 27 Oct, so thats a month at least. And here a pic of the signs been painted over.
View attachment 68174

Well it certainly looks professionally done, so it must be legal

 

[maureenandtom]

Well it certainly looks professionally done, so it must be legal

Doesn't matter - you can't be expected to obey illegible signs. Who knows what's under that paint? Up to the council to clean them up.

I never did get a response to my proposals but I'm sure this isn't it. I might just contact them again. And Councillor Eeles.

 

[antiquesam]

I think the Welsh probably expect you to be able to read the language. I suppose that would be reasonable when I think about when we expect every foreigner to be able to read English signs.