Leisure Battery and stand alone Battery Charger

[trevskoda]

I bought a Yuasa L35-115 battery about 2 1/2 years ago and it still seems as good as new. It's paired up with another but doesn't usually go less than 80% so I expect it should at least last that long again.

It will but lose some every day whereas the power frame will hold for 5 ish years before starting to lose a percentage of power.

 

[AMcQ46]

Choosing a battery is a minefield, in most cases it comes down to price size and weight , have you thought a about a battery monitor like the aili (wildebus supply) gives information. about the battery state as it counts amps in and amps out ..I have a Sargent set up and have no complaints .it charges my batterys to 100 %

@wildebus which AiLi monitor do you recommend? I see they do a shunt type and hall sensor loop type.

I have a very basic Transit Van Day van set up with 100W solar and 110Ah leisure bat, all mounted under the passenger seat. I am mostly doing 1 or 2 days off grid with the biggest power user being the 12V fridge, and want to be able to manage the battery discharge level. I am looking for something small as it will live under the passenger seat rather than get panel mounted.

 

[wildebus]

@wildebus which AiLi monitor do you recommend? I see they do a shunt type and hall sensor loop type.

I have a very basic Transit Van Day van set up with 100W solar and 110Ah leisure bat, all mounted under the passenger seat. I am mostly doing 1 or 2 days off grid with the biggest power user being the 12V fridge, and want to be able to manage the battery discharge level. I am looking for something small as it will live under the passenger seat rather than get panel mounted.

I've only used the Aili Monitor with a shunt. I've not actually seen a Hall Sensor version TBH. Have you a link to one I could have a look at?

Opening up to a bigger question, I did try out a diffrent SOC Monitor that did have a Hall Sensor system. I had it running in series with a Victron BMV to try out and the results between the two were very close indeed so I would be perfectly happy with either system type.
If you are not going to have the display mounted and under a seat, maybe consider a Victron Smartshunt headless monitor? you can check the data at any time via a Smartphone app and saves shifting seat bases out the way to see the info?

 

[AMcQ46]

thanks for fast answer
hall loop AiLi this is the one I spotted, my main concern would have been about the resolution at lower current flows. but sounds like you have some data that says Hall type can be ok

even though the display will be under the seat, I can still see it when the seat is rotated, so although I could be tempted by a headless smart phone gadget, I dont strictly need one.

 

[wildebus]

thanks for fast answer
hall loop AiLi this is the one I spotted, my main concern would have been about the resolution at lower current flows. but sounds like you have some data that says Hall type can be ok

even though the display will be under the seat, I can still see it when the seat is rotated, so although I could be tempted by a headless smart phone gadget, I dont strictly need one.

Ah ok. Thanks for the link. The Hall Sensor monitor I tried looked kinda like that. It would have been this DollaTek one I think - https://amzn.to/3qEkL4t .
I liked the monitor and the price was good but that shape can be awkward to install neatly compared to the round type of display that just need a hole saw and jobs a good 'un, which is why I tend to gravitate to the round ones

 

[AMcQ46]

@wildebus Last question. What current rating for the shunt version? I was thinking 50A is plenty steady state, but is there a big inrush spike on the fridge that would cause a problem and justify the 100A?

 

[wildebus]

@wildebus Last question. What current rating for the shunt version? I was thinking 50A is plenty steady state, but is there a big inrush spike on the fridge that would cause a problem and justify the 100A?

three options - 50A, 100A and 350A.
price difference is mimimal. I would not go for 50A as it can be limiting if you have an inverter or get heavy inrushes. 50A is only 600A, so with either situation you could have a problem (I've never tried overloading an Aili Shunt so can't say what the result of doing so would be).
100A will usually be easiest to cable, 350A would usually mean slight cable adjustments (has 10mm studs, same as Victron shunts, and few installations use 10mm studs by default so would need to redo ring crimp on the earth lead).
The shunts on the Aili monitors don't come with any kind of mount so on the ones I supply I include an mounting box for security.

 

[Deleted member 86180]

Thanks. It’s not so much more power that’s needed for me but a better battery that holds charge and delivers it’s power without dropping off so much.

It depends on what you are wanting to do. Lithium’s hold onto charge and give a far more constant rate of discharge well below zero degrees. A 50ah lithium Lifepo4 battery would give far better performance than a 100 ah lead acid. You could charge that size lithium far far more quickly as well, but like I said, it all depends on what you need. If you have access to regular hook up it might not be for you. If you are wild camping a lot and have less access to regular hook up then Lifepo4 is clearly well worth exploring and actually cheaper per ah as a long term investment.

Only downside to Lifepo4 as far as I can see is fast charging at low temperatures. I found a way around that though

Plenty of YouTube videos to guide you as far as what your needs are.

 

[AllanD]

Thanks, I don't wild camp a lot and only rely on solar when on campsites for no ore than 3 or 4 nights in the sunnier months. The rest of the time we use EHU (and are able to hook up to the mains when the van is not in use on our drive) so not big off grid users.

I have thought about Lifepo4 before though and you've made an interesting comparison of a 50ah lithium versus a 100ah lead acid which has got me thinking again now, much appreciated.

Allan,

 

[wildebus]

I am not sure about the "far better performance" bit about a 50Ah Lithium vs a 100Ah Lead (presumably taken down to 50Ah?)

I like doing comparison tests and I did a discharge and recharge test on a 100Ah Relion LiFePO4 battery (full discharge) vs a Northstar NSB 210FT Blue+ Lead Carbon 210 Ah Battery - taking that down to 50% SOC.
I found the performance of both very similar.

• They both discharged just over 100Ah in the same period of time.
  (That sound obvious but actually as voltage drops, the discharge starts to accelerate as a battery must give up more stored energy to deliver the same power - P=IV. If P (Watts/Load) stay constant, and V (Volts) lowers, I (Current) must increase to compenate. An Ah is current drawn over time, so as Current increases, Ah used increases).
  
  
• They both - and this is the most surprising thing - recharged in a very similar time.
  A Lead Acid battery tends to drop off in the way it accepts charge as it approaches full-charge. On my test, this made very little difference to the recharge time. The size of the charger can make a difference to what happens here. If you have a charger that is not close to charging at the maximum rate, then that charge current drop-off is much less apparent as the charger could be maxed out even delivering what the battery would regard as a reduced charge. (In my test I actually downrated the charger to deliver the maximum charge current the Relion was spec'ed for, so that wasn't a factor in my test however).
  

Lithium Batteries have some significant advantages over Lead Acid, mostly around life-cycles (so service life) and size (both weight and footprint) but I have yet to be covinced that there is an overwhelming reason to switch to them UNLESS the size aspect is important (and for many, it can be).
When I bought the kit for my new Motorhome I was going to go for Lithium but in the end when weighing up the pros and cons decided to go with 300Ah of Lead Carbon, a more advanced type of Lead Acid battery, similar to the ones I compared against the LiFePO4 battery.
Reasons?

• Price - 300Ah of Lead Carbon is less than 100Ah of Lithium (so 50% more capacity from Lead Carbon option when only taking down to 50% SOC). (I could in fact have got 400Ah of Lead Carbon for the cost of the 100Ah Lithium Battery I would have opted for).
• Capacity
  • 100Ah of Lithium = 100Ah of Capacity at the very most (but usually only recommended to around 80% as a matter of course).
  • 300Ah of Lead Carbon = >200Ah of Capacity if you take it down to 33% SOC, which is perfectly ok to do if you don't do it everytime if you have the right batteries. It becomes a very handy emergency/peace of mind reserve. To have a reserve over 100Ah on Lithium would cost additional hundreds of pounds.
• Life Cycles - going down to 50%, the Lead Carbon batteries I selected will have a service life of around a decade. Do I need a battery that will last until I am 130 years old? where is the benefit to me in that?

It was not that I did not believe or want Lithium, but the price I would have had to pay for the Lithium option was just too much for the benefit I would have realised. Good Choice? Bad Choice? Time may tell.

 

[AllanD]

Thanks David, brilliant information.

Was it the Alpha/Ritar Lead Carbon Gel batteries you went for? I remember looking at those following one of your previous posts but was a bit unsure about some of the information on the Alpha website, the charging details shown on the Ritar picture on the label on the battery was different to the Alpha data sheet. Presumably the Alpha information is correct though (the url also has agm within the text, guessing that was just a mistake)?

Allan

 

[Deleted member 86180]

I am not sure about the "far better performance" bit about a 50Ah Lithium vs a 100Ah Lead (presumably taken down to 50Ah?)

I can assure everyone that any respectable Lifepo4 50AH battery will far outperform all 100Ah lead acid batteries of the same capacity as stated. Lead Carbon batteries are quite different and should not be considered close to standard lead acid technology.

The op mentioned minimal needs in terms of use. A very good quality 50ah Polinovel Lifepo4 (for example) comes in at just under £580. It’s guaranteed for 2500 cycles. It’s Bluetooth and registers every cylcle on a rolling basis. Also shows SOC, temperature, draw and incoming charge, current state of each cell and any warnings (for example overcharge) They are guaranteed for that number of cycles and that’s a very long time.

They are about half the weight, can be charged at a very high rate, discharged at a high rates if needed (inverters) and in general use keep producing high end voltage consistently throughout discharge.

If kept between 80% and 20% of charge, expect cycles to increase to over 5000 (bench tested). Granted that’s much longer than you might require, but remains a good selling point when selling on!

Granted, time will tell, but as I’ve previously said, it’s horses for courses, I’m pretty confident that £/AH lifeo4 will have the edge over Lead Carbon, that said I’m not proud and will stand corrected at the appropriate time

By the way which Lead Carbon did you go for, capacity price and guarantee?

 

[wildebus]

I can assure everyone that any respectable Lifepo4 50AH battery will far outperform all 100Ah lead acid batteries of the same capacity as stated. Lead Carbon batteries are quite different and should not be considered close to standard lead acid technology.

The op mentioned minimal needs in terms of use. A very good quality 50ah Polinovel Lifepo4 (for example) comes in at just under £580. It’s guaranteed for 2500 cycles. It’s Bluetooth and registers every cylcle on a rolling basis. Also shows SOC, temperature, draw and incoming charge, current state of each cell and any warnings (for example overcharge) They are guaranteed for that number of cycles and that’s a very long time.

They are about half the weight, can be charged at a very high rate, discharged at a high rates if needed (inverters) and in general use keep producing high end voltage consistently throughout discharge.

If kept between 80% and 20% of charge, expect cycles to increase to over 5000 (bench tested). Granted that’s much longer than you might require, but remains a good selling point when selling on!

Granted, time will tell, but as I’ve previously said, it’s horses for courses, I’m pretty confident that £/AH lifeo4 will have the edge over Lead Carbon, that said I’m not proud and will stand corrected at the appropriate time

By the way which Lead Carbon did you go for, capacity price and guarantee?

£580 for a 50Ah Lithium Battery is extremely pricey nowadays.
Ignoring discounts, my 300Ah of Lead Carbon Batteries cost the same as your 50Ah Lithium. If I went for 1, be a 3rd of the cost
They are rated at 2,000 cycles compared to your 2,500 cycles.
These batteries will charge at 30A each. The typical Lithium battery tends to have a recommended maximum charge of 50% - that is 25A for the 50A Lithium
Guarantee is 5 years, service life is 8-12 years.

Lead Carbon batteries are still Lead Acid, albeit more advanced but only a little more expensive then a decent Lead Acid.
I still don't regard Lithium as the more economical choice even when you are factoring in lifecycles. A dumb battery like a Lead Acid has nothing really to go wrong in it as long as external influences are ok. A Lithium Battery has internal electronics to consider. maybe the CELLS will last 5,000 cycles - that would be 13 odd years if used every day - but will the ELECTRONICS - invariably built down to a price and powered up 24/7 - last that long? I have my doubts personally.

Thanks David, brilliant information.

Was it the Alpha/Ritar Lead Carbon Gel batteries you went for? I remember looking at those following one of your previous posts but was a bit unsure about some of the information on the Alpha website, the charging details shown on the Ritar picture on the label on the battery was different to the Alpha data sheet. Presumably the Alpha information is correct though (the url also has agm within the text, guessing that was just a mistake)?

Allan

I have the Ritar AGM Lead Acid batteries. I got them when they were first listed by Alpha, but they are not currently available until later in the spring I think (and likely under an Explorer name). The Ritar Lead Battery Alpha list at the moment are a GEL version with a slightly lower cycle count but a longer service life (a feature of GEL batteries generally).
I noticed the URL on that current listing still says AGM but they are GEL batteries.
Lithium Batteries have certainly dropped in price recently and are worth a consideration - but IMO, £580 for a 50Ah is OTT with current prices.

 

[Deleted member 86180]

I don’t have a 50Ah Polinovel Lifepo4 battery, mine is the single 200Ah version with Bluetooth. I get your reticence regarding price (mine was £1700) but you didn’t mention what price you paid and what guarantee you have? You said 2,000 cycles, but what guarantee do you actually have if ‘they’ aren’t smart? Presumably your batteries are guaranteed? How do you measure cycles in order to warrant guarantee or is the guarantee measured by years alone?

Like I’ve previously said, it’s horses for courses. I don’t want to have to scurry around trying to explain to HHMBO why we don’t have power and then do all of those necessary checks only to establish the lead acid is f*c*ed yet again.

 

[wildebus]

I don’t have a 50Ah Polinovel Lifepo4 battery, mine is the single 200Ah version with Bluetooth. I get your reticence regarding price (mine was £1700) but you didn’t mention what price you paid and what guarantee you have? You said 2,000 cycles, but what guarantee do you actually have if ‘they’ aren’t smart? Presumably your batteries are guaranteed? How do you measure cycles in order to warrant guarantee or is the guarantee measured by years alone?

Like I’ve previously said, it’s horses for courses. I don’t want to have to scurry around trying to explain to HHMBO why we don’t have power and then do all of those necessary checks only to establish the lead acid is f**c*ed yet again.

I said " Ignoring discounts, my 300Ah of Lead Carbon Batteries cost the same as your 50Ah Lithium. If I went for 1, be a 3rd of the cost ". Simple maths ... under £200 each, no?
I said " Guarantee is 5 years " - I have a smart SOC Monitor that records the cycles. I also bought the batteries from a company who I know take customer service seriously. If there was a performance decline within the guarantee period and I was under the cycle count for the average discharge, I have no doubt the situation would be rectified.

You are clearly smitten with your Lithium battery - and so you should be at £1700 That's great

 

[Deleted member 86180]

And your Guarantee reads exactly?

 

[Deleted member 86180]

I can see your cycles which is great, but exactly how many cycles are guaranteed, you didn’t mention the 5 years guarantee (I’ll stand corrected, but would like to know the conditions). However, 5 years isn’t much more than any reputable lead acid battery.

Yes clearly smitten, but I don’t tend to like risk. Anyway like you say - “time may tell”

 

[wildebus]

And your Guarantee reads exactly?

go look for yourself. I am not going to keep answering questions where you could go and look yourself if you are genuinely interested.

 

[AllanD]

I have the Ritar AGM Lead Acid batteries. I got them when they were first listed by Alpha, but they are not currently available until later in the spring I think (and likely under an Explorer name). The Ritar Lead Battery Alpha list at the moment are a GEL version with a slightly lower cycle count but a longer service life (a feature of GEL batteries generally).
I noticed the URL on that current listing still says AGM but they are GEL batteries.
Lithium Batteries have certainly dropped in price recently and are worth a consideration - but IMO, £580 for a 50Ah is OTT with current prices.

Thanks David, that explains a few things. I didn’t realise the Ritar Lead Carbon AGM batteries were available at one point but not now but will be again soon, and the Ritar Lead Carbon Gel batteries are a more recent addition (not helped by the Alpha website appearing to have a few mistakes with information crossing over between the two, all a bit confusing).

I need to rule out AGM batteries because the Sargent PX-300 charger isn’t suitable for AGM charge requirements and I don’t want to replace any of the Sargent set-up (I quite like the EC700 power control system). However it looks like it will cope fine with the Alpha/Ritar Lead Carbon Gel batteries. Going off the alpha spec. sheet the Gel battery should just about fit into my battery box and the 5 year warranty is great so worth considering. Am I right in saying you are impressed with the Ritar quality and performance so far?

 

[wildebus]

I have only had them in the Motorhome since October last year and as you know, would have had little chance to try them, but I was/am impressed with the Lead Carbon batteries I have in the Campervan and no reason not to expect the same results. On my initial testing after installing it looks like it should.
I am not using any of the Factory/Sargent charging systems as for my setup they would not be powerful enough so I didn't look into that aspect at all.