layby fee dodgers

That's a dodgy site Mr Brown.

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I have read all the comments on this thread and it would appear that this lady has now realised that her comments on the BBC have been hyped up and taken out of their original context.

Hopefully she now realises the damage she may have done to not only her own business, but cornish tourist businesses as a whole, further reducing their income in these already tightened times.

I have just come back from spending two nights at Huttoft and Moggs Eye in lincolnshire. although I spent no money on campsite / parking fees I bought food and newspapers in the local shops and I spent £70 on diesel at a garage in Skegness on my way back home today.

I asked in one of the shops about the state of the tourist trade in the area at this normally "heaving" time of peak season and was told it is totally dead this year entirely due to the weather conditions. What's the point of renting a static caravan, or tent camping if all you can do is stay inside watching the TV? You might just as well save your money and stay home.

So, to blame motorhomers parking in laybys for her downturn in income only serves to damage her own reputation and that of other businesses in her area.
 
I was not going to reply to this thread but some of the comments are way of base a bit like my grammar I have lived and worked in Cornwall for 20 years + driving a lorry delivering milk to shops and campsites all over Cornwall

You pay £5.70 for a 24 hrs ticket at Marazion main car park so it's not free

you can only fit 10 motorhomes max on the road side without paying which the council are trying to turn into a cycle lane to stop free parking

most of the motorhomes parked at Marazion in the summer are foreign so its the normal practice for them to sleep in car parks

waste on the beach what a load of rubbish the toilet is closer so why go on the beach and go down a load of steps it make's no sense

WE do not owe Mrs Watts a living she needs to look at her site and make the changes that will bring her in the custom she needs

bookings are down on every campsite I have deliver to the weather and lack of money are being blamed I have spoken to site owners about doing a list / book and calling it the under £10 a night campsites (moonshadow 555 gave me the idea ) some site owners look at me gone out when I suggest it needs to be under a tenner but when I explain to them that its ok for the big sites that have water parks and go carting tracks to charge good money but your plastic toilet in the middle of a full of cow sh-t field doe's not make me want to part with £20 a night a fiver sounds more like it and it would help fill your empty pitches and campers would possibly use the farm shop and spend money so some are starting to come around to the idea

I was on a site 2 days ago and could not help but notice the pitches were so close 4ft apart in some cases is the rule 20ft apart ? kids screaming all night in the tent next to you because they have got sunburn that day well maybe not sunburn not this year anyway no thanks give me a car park any day
 
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So if you can't park in the layby's, and dont want to pay the extortionate prices on the campsite, what's to stop you parking on road, oustside a house? cos this is what's going to happen, banning parking from layby's is not going to force people onto campsites, i have done this loads of times, leave the car park at say 10 pm then go back first thing in morning, only trouble with that is you can't have a drink, but thats no biggy, i know where i'd rather be, i experienced the sardine camp site, with screaming kids, oooooo eerrrrr eek, they are so noisy lol
 
there are a few even bigger laybys not far from the coast .or go a bit closer to penzance you can stop there by the station . in fact there are loads of places . have a look on google go inland on the a394 towards helston big laybys either side of the road . easydrive from local site seeing and the beach.
 
I would generally seek a place in town or inconspicuous area back from the sea front anyway.
 
John Thompson said:
That is with the landowners permission and only 28 days in a year of habitation. How do you know that the number of days have not been exceeded? Do you ask the landowner for specific permission to park?

I also follow the same rule of one or two nights only, but in no way can we claim to be not causing a breach of the 1960 Act by the landowner.

Common land is owned by the commoners, it is not public land and even if unfenced it is an offence to drive a vehicle more than 15 yards onto it from the highway. Some roadside verges are common land, not part of the highway.

John
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Hi John

I said earlier that technically many campsite owners are breaking the law by stating a flat fee for electricity but because this law was drawn up to prevent landlords scamming their tenants it does not seem to be enforced against site owners. Similarly, the 2 day/28 day rule you refer to was drawn up to prevent abuses that have nothing to do with motorhomers pulling up for the night. Consequently, every policeman I have ever asked (including a couple of good friends) has told me that the police have no intention of enforcing the law against us - providing we are not breaking any other law of course! Remember, technically it is illegal for any vehicle to park anywhere on the highway but this is a rule that is certainly not enforced - it would cause chaos if it were.

All of which brings me back to the oft-debated do-we-make-a-fuss or do-we-keep-our-heads-down? I am definitely in the second camp. If they don't know you've been they are unlikely to complain.

All the best
John
 
markymo said:
I was on a site 2 days ago and could not help but notice the pitches were so close 4ft apart in some cases is the rule 20ft apart ? kids screaming all night in the tent next to you because they have got sunburn that day well maybe not sunburn not this year anyway no thanks give me a car park any day
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Hi Markymo

The 6 meter (20ft) spacing is a recomendation for fire precautions. There should be 3 metres between the caravan/motor caravan/tent and any other unit in separate occupation. That spacing should be free of any object including guy ropes, windbreakes, parked cars, etc.

It is a rule by the big clubs that members comply with this spacing. The Association of Camping and Caravanning Exempted Associations (ACCEO) also recommend to their member clubs (200+) that this is adheared too. Natural England recommend it is placed in all exempted rally site rules. There are over 400 exempted caravan clubs, including this forum.

If the local authority specifies it in the site licence, it also then becomes a regulation for the site to comply with.

This is the wording in the guidance notes issued by Natural England to all exempted organisations. In this is a copy of the ACCEO guidance with pictues of spacing for diferent types of unit.

Spacing and Density

16. For health and safety purposes emergency vehicles must be able to gain access to any unit on the site. As such, units should be well spaced and sited so they do not restrict access to, or exit from, any other unit or the site in general. At least 3 metres should be required between units in all circumstances. For this purpose, a unit includes the caravan, motor home, tent or trailer-tent, plus any awnings, gazebo or pup-tent and the car or towing vehicle.

17. Where a site is being used by both caravans and tents they must be sited entirely separate from each other for health & safety reasons. However, this does not necessarily mean segregated. If the layout of the field does not allow for separate lines of tents, it is permissible to continue a line of caravans/motor homes with a line of tents, but they must be sited en-bloc and not interspersed. Trailer tents are classified as tents and must be sited accordingly. Children’s “pup-tents” may be erected alongside the parents’ unit and should be considered as part of the unit for spacing purposes. It is recommended that there is at least 6 metres between any rows of caravans and tents. See Annex 1d for further advice on spacing issues.

This guidance recommends that not less than three metres should be permitted between units. For this purpose, a unit includes the caravan/motor home/tent plus any awning, gazebo or “pup-tent” and the vehicle/tow car

Please Note: - To allow the attendance of tents & trailer tents (with the exception of children’s “pup-tents”) on caravan rallies a separate Camping Exemption Certificate must be held in conjunction with a Caravan Exemption certificate.
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Many commercial sites allow mixed tent camping and caravanning and ignore these regulations. Most site users have never heard of them and are never told to move to comply with them.

I have seen some of the overcrowding on commercial sites in the high season as well.

John
 
John H said:
Hi John

I said earlier that technically many campsite owners are breaking the law by stating a flat fee for electricity but because this law was drawn up to prevent landlords scamming their tenants it does not seem to be enforced against site owners. Similarly, the 2 day/28 day rule you refer to was drawn up to prevent abuses that have nothing to do with motorhomers pulling up for the night. Consequently, every policeman I have ever asked (including a couple of good friends) has told me that the police have no intention of enforcing the law against us - providing we are not breaking any other law of course! Remember, technically it is illegal for any vehicle to park anywhere on the highway but this is a rule that is certainly not enforced - it would cause chaos if it were.

All of which brings me back to the oft-debated do-we-make-a-fuss or do-we-keep-our-heads-down? I am definitely in the second camp. If they don't know you've been they are unlikely to complain.

All the best
John
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Hi John

The 2 night & 28 day limitation is law not a rule. It is laid down in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.

Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights
2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan
site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan
on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights—
(a) during that period no other caravan is stationed for the
purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining
land in the same occupation, and
(b) if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on
which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number
of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that
land or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human
habitation did not exceed twenty-eight.
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This is not a Police matter but is enforced by the local authority on the landowner. The landowner is responsible for accounting for the number of night the site has been used without a site licence. If he is unaware of the vehicles parking how can he keep this record. I know from personal experience that planning officers will collect this evidence then confront land owners.

Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1972 makes it an offence to drive a motor vehicle on common land except where the vehicle is driven not more than 15 yards from the road solely in order to park.

Therefor if you breach section 36 you are liable for prosecution.

I agree that we are unlikely to be pursued for stopping for one nights parking under either act. It is better to know your legal position though, than go around in ignorance. I wild park myself and would move immediately if challenged. I have see comments on here where people say they wont move. No overnight camping signs are a way of informing us that we are not welcome, even if they have no standing in law, but could be used as a defence by a landowner if he is pursued.

I agree with you on the electricity matter.

John
 
John Thompson said:
Hi John

The 2 night & 28 day limitation is law not a rule. It is laid down in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.



This is not a Police matter but is enforced by the local authority on the landowner. The landowner is responsible for accounting for the number of night the site has been used without a site licence. If he is unaware of the vehicles parking how can he keep this record. I know from personal experience that planning officers will collect this evidence then confront land owners.

Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1972 makes it an offence to drive a motor vehicle on common land except where the vehicle is driven not more than 15 yards from the road solely in order to park.

Therefor if you breach section 36 you are liable for prosecution.

I agree that we are unlikely to be pursued for stopping for one nights parking under either act. It is better to know your legal position though, than go around in ignorance. I wild park myself and would move immediately if challenged. I have see comments on here where people say they wont move. No overnight camping signs are a way of informing us that we are not welcome, even if they have no standing in law, but could be used as a defence by a landowner if he is pursued.

I agree with you on the electricity matter.

John
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Hi John

Yes, it is a law not a rule (sloppy language on my part). The point I was making is that it was drawn up for purposes other than moving on a motorhome that is not causing any other problems and so the police are unlikely to enforce it against a discretely parked motorhome. You are, of course, correct about private landowners abusing the situation and in effect setting up an illegal campsite but that is not the set of circumstances that are being discussed on this thread.

I also agree that it is always wise to know what the law says, even if there is little liklihood of it being enforced, so that we do not upset the authorities to the extent that they start to enforce those laws!

.
 
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Wow...this topic has certainly moved on and been lively!

Lots of interesting posts - especially the last few, measured and info involving some legal issues - thankyou.

My take on it - once again jounalists have stirred up a hornets nest which, in the end, has done the camp site owner and our community no good at all.

This has been seen by other members of the public and commented on in an adverse way to us - I bumped in to someone (no damage) the other day, an old friend who i had not seen for about 10 years. He now has a motorhome but doesn't wild camp, his impression was that the wilders were in the wrong! He had only seen the media coverage and is not a member of any forum. As a motorhomer he came down against us, imagine what other people think!

My point is, this post took off with some unfortuate comments based on media propaganda and not based on fact (as discussed above). IMHO it is the BBC which should be getting the tongue lashing - this is not the first time and it won't be the last!

Have fun and don't take life too much to heart....it is far too short!:cheers:

ian
 
Early closing on camp sites offers a benefit for the owner (the evenings off-duty) and is "sold" to caravanners as a quiet site with no late night revellers returning noisily, it can also be sold to parents as their kids are perceived as safe to roam once the gates are locked.

On a recent trip I arrived late at a campsite (her indoors did not wish to camp on Silverdale beach - despite neap tides) & I was leaving early having failed to locate the owner or any warden. As we left a landy came in & on stopping to chat, we discoverd he was the owner. Once we explained that we had merely parked in the field overnight & were fully self-sufficient he offered us a reduced fee of a tenner. We'd had a lovely quiet night, fabulous sunset & a place to walk the dog so a tenner was fine. I have in the past knocked on farm doors to ask if they know of anywhere we could park overnight, many will suggest a nearby field or a corner of the yard if you say you are willing to pay a few quid cash.

Wilding needs initiative, discretion & tact, that is why I don't subscribe to the POI info, I will find my own.
 
Sparks said:
BBC News - Call to prevent lay-by camping in Cornwall


"Strictly speaking"? If that's the stance of the C&CC then it looks like they will be losing a member here!
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We already left the C&CC this year and put our sub to Phil's Wildcamping - have to move with the times !. Already been to 2 Wildcamp Meets this year & met more, better company than in 9 years of the C&CC. Anyway, there aren't any pyromaniac, clotted cream eating alcoholics in the 'proper' Clubs, which is another reason for leaving.
 
Don't uses sites unless I am out with children (ahhhhhh) just spent the last 2 nights on a CC site at Coniston. £28.15 per night 1 pitch 2 adults and 2 children (Nieces). Damd expensive but I have the security I want on a site like this that they can play safely.

A suppose a time and a place for all things??

Give me Wilding any day of the week though when I am out on my own.😃
 
ivecotrucker said:
We already left the C&CC this year and put our sub to Phil's Wildcamping - have to move with the times !. Already been to 2 Wildcamp Meets this year & met more, better company than in 9 years of the C&CC. Anyway, there aren't any pyromaniac, clotted cream eating alcoholics in the 'proper' Clubs, which is another reason for leaving.
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Now why are my ears burning :) Is this a reference to my penny stove shennanigans :lol-049:
 
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Having read all the posts on this thread, the only one I actually agreed with was "Smaug's"
"Wilding needs initiative, discretion & tact, that is why I don't subscribe to the POI info, I will find my own." To park on a back street in front of someones home just to be in the town or near the beach is not my sort of wilding. Iwill find an out of the way place, interfere with no one, and leave no trace that I've been there. Public toilets for the cassette, and any farmer/householder if asked in the proper polite way will supply water. I have never been frowned on, sworn at for being there or cut up or abused for driving my m/home.
I think some on here feel they are superior road users and can push their way around. They are the ones that make it difficult for the rest of us. Respect for everyone goes a long way but it has to be earnt in both directions (something the younger generation seem to have lost).
 
Suntor 100 said:
Having read all the posts on this thread, the only one I actually agreed with was "Smaug's"
"Wilding needs initiative, discretion & tact, that is why I don't subscribe to the POI info, I will find my own." To park on a back street in front of someones home just to be in the town or near the beach is not my sort of wilding. Iwill find an out of the way place, interfere with no one, and leave no trace that I've been there. Public toilets for the cassette, and any farmer/householder if asked in the proper polite way will supply water. I have never been frowned on, sworn at for being there or cut up or abused for driving my m/home.
I think some on here feel they are superior road users and can push their way around. They are the ones that make it difficult for the rest of us. Respect for everyone goes a long way but it has to be earnt in both directions (something the younger generation seem to have lost).
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Thank you. Reading internet forum's has opened my eyes to a world I had no idea existed - despite having MH's since 1976 & having recently returned after a 20 year gap. We used to use basic sites like CL's & wilded where there were no sites & no people. But I have now discovered that people stop over in towns & cities, that industrial estates are lovely & quiet overnight & that even busy promenades can be used for overnighting. I still don't fancy such sites, altho the ideas are now planted & it does open up extra choices. However I don't have a problem with those that do "wild in the city", all I would ask is don't overstay your welcome & leave nothing behind but your thanks, as I was taught in the Scouts.
 
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