How thick am I?

[colinm]

Interesting thread. I have a pop-top campervan based on the Transit Custom which the DVLA refuse to classify as a Motor Caravan (it fails their external appearance criterion, though ticks all the other boxes) so it’s classified as Van with Windows, type = LGV.
If I was doing 55mph on an unlimited single carriageway, or 65mph on a dual carriageway, I had assumed that I could be done because this would exceed commercial vehicle limits.

If I’ve understood this thread correctly, I could challenge/appeal any penalty issued (presumably based on a DVLA lookup) on the basis of its USE as a Motor Caravan. Do we know what evidence is most likely to win the challenge?

it’s chuffin obvious it is a campervan but the obvious doesn’t always work with the law!

If you read the first part of this you will see .gov's position, my only reservation is that .gov website often contains errors and I'm not sure the courts will accept 'well .gov said I could'.

Converting a vehicle into a motor caravan (motor home)

www.gov.uk

 

[AndyC]

I think this is still up to date: https://ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/speed-limits

 

[merl]

Five years in and I have only just learned that vans have different speed limits!

I include the info below for fellow dimwits (assuming they can read):





View attachment 124355

Wrong forum mate! Should have gone to WWW. white-van-man-in-a-hurry-doing-90-in-the-fast-lane.com

 

[TonyEmm]

Five years in and I have only just learned that vans have different speed limits!

I include the info below for fellow dimwits (assuming they can read):





View attachment 124355

Your screenshot is incorrect!
Motorhomes over 3.05t UNLADEN weight are limited to 50mph on single carriageway, 60mph on dual carriageway and 70mph on a motorway.

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

 

[Nabsim]

My van came from manufacturer as a chassis cab so unladen weight will be low

 

[trevskoda]

I can carry 2 ton in mine, must eat more LOL.

 

[TonyEmm]

Your screenshot is incorrect!
Motorhomes over 3.05t UNLADEN weight are limited to 50mph on single carriageway, 60mph on dual carriageway and 70mph on a motorway.

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

I would add though that neither DVLA nor DVSA have a database of motorhomes unladen weights.
They wouldn’t know if you’re over or under 3,05t unladen weight!

 

[colinm]

I would add though that neither DVLA nor DVSA have a database of motorhomes unladen weights.
They wouldn’t know if you’re over or under 3,05t unladen weight!

I would note that they sometimes issue a ticket and expect you to say if ULW is under 3.05t.

 

[TonyEmm]

I would note that they sometimes issue a ticket and expect you to say if ULW is under 3.05t.

The fact is that most folk don’t know! It’s not on the VIN plate, it’s not a requirement that it’s on the V5c, and it’s impossible to measure, once it’s in an ‘on the road’ condition. The ‘unladen weight’ includes no fluids whatsoever ! No oil, no fuel, no water… .
It’s the reason I asked both dvla and DVSA what my unladen weight was… They couldn’t tell me.

 

[colinm]

The fact is that most folk don’t know! It’s not on the VIN plate, it’s not a requirement that it’s on the V5c, and it’s impossible to measure, once it’s in an ‘on the road’ condition. The ‘unladen weight’ includes no fluids whatsoever ! No oil, no fuel, no water… .
It’s the reason I asked both dvla and DVSA what my unladen weight was… They couldn’t tell me.

Not the ULW, but weight as presented for MOT can be recorded on the system, it was for ours some years back. My CoC has a section which when translated from German say unladen weight, but appears to be 'mass in running order'.

 

[Geek]

Really sorry if I've misinformed - a garage owner in Bridport told me and I then looked it up on Chat GPT - which can and does make mistakes come to think of it.

Chat GPT is not artificial "intelligence" in the sense of "cleverness", but in the sense of "espionage".

It's better described as "automated plagiarism". It has no concept of working out whether what it copies is sensible, correct or reliable.

 

[Geek]

The fact is that most folk don’t know! It’s not on the VIN plate, it’s not a requirement that it’s on the V5c, and it’s impossible to measure, once it’s in an ‘on the road’ condition. The ‘unladen weight’ includes no fluids whatsoever ! No oil, no fuel, no water… .
It’s the reason I asked both dvla and DVSA what my unladen weight was… They couldn’t tell me.

The UW doesn't include anything "not normally used on the rroad"so not only does it exclude bedding, it also excludes mattresses and even the weight of the bed. It doesn't just exclude the food, but also the food cupboard.

It's not possible to check the UW after the notirhomevis built. Manufacturers don't find it as they build because only the UK uses that measure.

Usually they quote "kerb weight" or MIRO, both of which are much, much heavier than UW.

My guess is that a motorhome with GVW of 5000kg is going to have a UW pushing the 3050kg limit, but that's only a guess.

For a prosecution to succeed, they would need legal proof that the UW is over 3050kg. How could they get that?

 

[colinm]

The UW doesn't include anything "not normally used on the rroad"so not only does it exclude bedding, it also excludes mattresses and even the weight of the bed. It doesn't just exclude the food, but also the food cupboard.

It's not possible to check the UW after the notirhomevis built. Manufacturers don't find it as they build because only the UK uses that measure.

Usually they quote "kerb weight" or MIRO, both of which are much, much heavier than UW.

My guess is that a motorhome with GVW of 5000kg is going to have a UW pushing the 3050kg limit, but that's only a guess.

For a prosecution to succeed, they would need legal proof that the UW is over 3050kg. How could they get that?

You seem to forget that to be classified as a motor caravan certain things have to be included in the build, once you remove those items it's no longer a motor caravan.

 

[merl]

For a prosecution to succeed, they would need legal proof that the UW is over 3050kg. How could they get that?

Agreed, that would be more hassle than the conviction is worth so they wouldn't pursue however can we be sure that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution and not the defence? If burden of proof lies with the van owner then it's now up to the owner to prove that the UW is less than 3050kg, obviously the ridiculous level of difficulty now lies with the owner.
I've no idea which way round this argument works but this one point of 'burden of proof' seems to me to be the most important of all.

 

[Robmac]

Agreed, that would be more hassle than the conviction is worth so they wouldn't pursue however can we be sure that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution and not the defence? If burden of proof lies with the van owner then it's now up to the owner to prove that the UW is less than 3050kg, obviously the ridiculous level of difficulty now lies with the owner.
I've no idea which way round this argument works but this one point of 'burden of proof' seems to me to be the most important of all.

They could do it if they could be bothered. It would mean taking the Kerb weight from the vehicle spec then minus the weight of a 90% full fuel tank, the battery, jack and tool kit.

I don't think they would bother somehow.

 

[EarthDemon]

Wrong forum mate! Should have gone to WWW. white-van-man-in-a-hurry-doing-90-in-the-fast-lane.com

Yeah that's me

 

[colinm]

They could do it if they could be bothered. It would mean taking the Kerb weight from the vehicle spec then minus the weight of a 90% full fuel tank, the battery, jack and tool kit.

I don't think they would bother somehow.

Have you ever seen a motorhome manufacturer quote the kerb weight?

 

[Robmac]

Have you ever seen a motorhome manufacturer quote the kerb weight?

Nope.

But in a PVC the base vehicle will have one in the van spec.

 

[wildebus]

Some defintions of ULW include fuel, some don't. You need to check the definition used at the point you are starting from.

Given the party who may have an interest in what your ULW may be is a government agency, it is probably appropriate to look at their definition

Vehicle weights explained

Explanations of the different terms you might see on your driving licence

www.gov.uk

Unladen weight​

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.
It doesn’t include the weight of:

• fuel
• batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

As the statement above has the phrase "body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road" ,if we are talking about a Motor Caravans ULW, I would say the ULW needs to include everything that defines the vehicle as a Motor Caravan.

But lots of things we take in a Motor Caravan are not required for that definition. So you can ignore the weight of any Solar Panels of course; 100% of all camping equipment can be ignored; you don't need any gas bottles if going from campsite to campsite; You don't need a Leisure battery logically (you can use the starter battery for any electrical power between sites); don't need an awning but DO need a table (table forms part of the definition of a Motor Caravan); Don't need TV, any clothes, water, etc.

If working with a "ready made" Motor Caravan, the information should be in the Brochures or failing that available from the Manufacturer.

Different Motorhome Manufacturers may use their own definitions of ULW - or call them MIRO (MIRO more common for Caravans?). Autotrail for example state "Unladen mass includes the weight of the driver (75kg) and 90% full of fuel." . On that basis, Autotrails Unladen Mass for my particular Motorhome is 3085Kg, which is above the 3050kg max figure for the DVLA, but knock off 75Kg for the driver, AND at least 75Kg for Fuel, and the equivalent gov.uk ULW is 2935Kg, so well below the 3050Kg number.
I uprated my Motorhome to 3850kg GVW but that makes no difference to the ULW which remains the same.

If building your own Camper, then it can be a good idea to get an official weighbridge ticket so you have evidence you are not more than a certain weight.

Agreed, that would be more hassle than the conviction is worth so they wouldn't pursue however can we be sure that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution and not the defence? If burden of proof lies with the van owner then it's now up to the owner to prove that the UW is less than 3050kg, obviously the ridiculous level of difficulty now lies with the owner.
I've no idea which way round this argument works but this one point of 'burden of proof' seems to me to be the most important of all.

Taking the comment above, IF it is needed to provide evidence and you don't have the numbers from a Manufacturer, then having a official weighbridge ticket will be far more powerful than someones opinion based on observation.
The burden *should* be on someone trying to prove a wrongdoing, but can be useful to be able to nip things like this in the bud to avoid the situation getting to far.
For my last self-build, I took the van to the local weighbridge the day after I had the V5C back with the "Motor Caravan" reclassification, got a ticket and kept it safe with the logbook as a precaution (given the GVW was 4600kg, I thought it quite possible some interested authority might be of the opinion it muse be over 3050kg ULW. It was actually something like 2880kg from memory and the ticket shows this clearly to anyone who cares).

 

[colinm]

Nope.

But in a PVC the base vehicle will have one in the van spec.

As per Wildebus's post, the base vehicle is a 'plain white van', not a motorcaravan, the base vehicle manufacturer has no input over what has been fixed in a vehicle to make it a 'motor caravan'.
p.s. I do know someone who got a speeding ticket on A14, when he disputed it he was asked to provide proof of ULW being under 3050kg, whilst he couldn't/didn't get the true ULW he did get a weighbridge ticket showing less than 3050kg by simply removing items which where not fixed in place.