Gas tank shut off access

[Sharpie]

Good practice hextal and easy done with bottles, what is practical with a tank a different proposition . I smile when people say they have crash valves like it is an advance in technology the realty is it is a upso valve French regulators have used for years ..under pressure shut off valves ..their biggest issue forgetting you have one when changing a bottle

Sorry Channa but you are incorrect.

The Truma crash sensor is not an UPSO. It is a genuine impact sensor triggered by G -force which cuts off the gas just after the regulator. It has to be mounted vertically to operate correctly. Used in combination with pigtails that have manually re-settable excess flow valves at the cylinder. Not the basic sort that our pigtails use (or don't even have), which can as you say be a nuisance if triggered when changing cylinders. Best to crack the cylinder over gently before opening it all the way.

According to Truma it has been a legal requirement since 2007 that a crash sensor be fitted in e.g. France and Germany, if using the gas whilst in motion.

See https://www.truma.com/uk/en/faq/gas-pressure-regulator-in-older-rvs.html

"Vehicles registered before 2007 are protected by a grandfather clause and may still be operated with a gas regulator without a crash sensor while the vehicle is in motion. However, the regulator and hoses must be replaced after 10 years.

In France, heating in vehicles while driving is allowed if the vehicle is equipped with a regulator system (such as MonoControl CS, DuoControl CS, Secumotion) and the vehicle was registered after 1 January 2007.

Note: In Germany, according to work sheet G 607 ("Gas Checks") and also in other European countries (recommended according to EN 12864), gas pressure regulators and gas hoses must be replaced every ten years. In France, gas hoses must be replaced after six years."

Also note:

Does the grandfather clause apply to vehicles or the old regulator?

Discover here whether the grandfather clause applies to RVs or also for the installed gas pressure regulator.

www.truma.com

"The grandfather clause applies only to the vehicle. If your gas pressure regulator or gas hose is more than ten years old, you must replace them. In France, gas hoses must be replaced after six years."

Replacing these parts is a legal requirement there, "taking a view" is not permitted. Doubtless you know this, as you do gas inspections in France. Dating of pigtails is hardly difficult. Here we have a manufacturing date. Add ten years to that, or six for France (hardly difficult) for expiry date. In France they have a "use by date" which will be six years from manufacture, since they have tighter rules (or poorer quality hoses). All perfectly clear. They degrade from the date they were manufactured, not when they were fitted, so before buying a new one check that it is not old stock.

When you consider that propane can reach pressures of 26 BAR (380 psi) in high temperatures i.e. around 60C, before the cylinder protection valve should blow off, it becomes understandable why. The testing that you do at say room temperature, 9 bar, may not show up a latent problem that could be triggered when air temperatures regularly rise above 40C, much hotter where equipment is exposed to the beating sun.

Can you be certain for example that the regulator will continue to regulate and lock up correctly when the input pressure is possibly three times that at which you tested it ? I think that all you can do is trust that the manufacturer got that right by conservative design for an intended lifespan of ten years. Nevertheless there are parts in there that can wear or fail or go out of adjustment or be contaminated. Valve seats, diaphragms, springs etc.

According to Truma it is permitted to drive with the cylinder valve opened.

May gas cylinders be connected while driving?

Discover here whether you are allowed to connect the gas cylinders in your caravan or motor home while your are driving.

www.truma.com

"Yes, gas cylinders may be connected while driving. They are then considered to be equipment and not hazardous materials (ADR exemption in accordance with sections 1.1.3.1 and 1.1.3.2 e). Gas cylinders that are not connected to the gas installation must be closed at all times and have protection caps. "

What do I have to consider if I want to use my gas-operated appliances while driving?

Discover here what you have to consider if you want to use gas-operated Truma appliances while driving.

www.truma.com

"With motor homes as of construction year 01/2007, in accordance with the heating equipment directive 2001/56/EC with annexes 2004/78/EC and 2006/119/EC for the operation of a liquid gas heater while driving, a safety shut-off device must be provided that prevents gas from inadvertently escaping if a line breaks in the event of an accident.

In combination with high-pressure gas hoses with integrated hose rupture protection (HRP), the Truma MonoControl CS and DuoControl CS gas pressure regulators (with integrated crash sensor) comply with all of the relevant standards, regulations and directives and therefore allow the gas system to be used throughout Europe, also while driving. We recommend that you use a safety device also in caravans for heating while driving.

For vehicles manufactured before 01/2007 there are no restrictions for operating the gas system while driving. This does not apply in France where operation of a gas system while driving is only permitted in type-tested vehicles with initial registration from 1/1/2007. In older vehicles, operation of a gas system while driving is not permitted, even in combination with a safety shut-off device."

It may be that the Truma CS system of regulator and pigtails exceeds the actual requirement that "a safety shut-off device must be provided that prevents gas from inadvertently escaping if a line breaks in the event of an accident". That suggests to me that en excess flow valve at the cylinder might actually be sufficient in itself. However if a line is broken downstream of the regulator, would there be sufficient gas flow through the regulator to trigger the valve at the cylinder ? I have tried it on mine, and there is not. The Truma "hose rupture protection" devices are more than just a basic automatic excess flow device, they latch shut when triggered requiring manual reset.

This also begs the question of whether an underslung tank system can be compliant, unless perhaps it has an excess flow cutoff at the tank itself. Do they ? "if a line breaks" is pretty clear. They used to be copper, nowadays they are a polymer that can only resist fire to a limited extent. Gasit offer a solenoid valve to shut it off directly at the tank, but that is not automatic.

Truma do actually offer a CS regulator to be directly attached to an underslung tank outlet valve. So all the subsequent pipework operates at low pressure, unlike the usual arrangement.

Cars and other vehicles nowadays all have crash sensors that switch off the fuel pump in the event of an impact. You may not realise that you have one but it will be there. If triggered in a modest impact there will be a button on it to reset it so you can drive onwards, worth knowing where that is before it happens.

All the Truma information refers to using heating when in motion. I see no reference to fridges or other things. I wonder if they come under the same rules or are not regulated ? My fridge has manual changeover and operates very well when in motion, better than on 12V. It makes little sense to me to burn diesel in the engine, turn it into electricity in the alternator to power the fridge, when just burning much cheaper LPG at the fridge is so much more efficient, and leaves more alternator current available for charging and other uses.

With my van coming to it's tenth anniversary this November I am considering replacing the regulator and pigtails with the Truma CS system, rather than just "taking a view", whether or not this is legally required in the UK. I do not know if the French and German rules only apply to locally registered vehicles, but if I was involved in an accident there and there was an enquiry it would be good to be able to show that my system was in compliance with their local regulations.

It does concern me that in the UK there is no requirement for periodic gas inspections of our vans, we may even fit major things like underslung tanks ourselves, whether or not we are competent to do so.

 

[runnach]

I am not incorrect at all ,what I didn't mention was knock sensors in either event shuts off the regulator if it detects a drop in pressure which you would get with a line fracture

Pigtails are recommended to be replaced at 5 years not 10 in the uk the 10 year suggestion of changing regulators is not a legal requirement if serviceable.

When ever gas checking or undertaking remedial work a let by test should be done . The logic behind it is if the regulator is letting by problems further downline could be being masked. And that needs fixing first ...

I have known new out the box regs to be faulty so a let by test is always first point of call equally if an old regulator is not letting by there is no real reason to change it ...albeit as a company we changed pigtails every 5 years and regs every 10

You take an interest in gas so know how pigtails are dated assuming others have the same understanding is dangerous , I once went to repair a defective water heater the pigtails were garden hose I kid not but amply demonstrates blaze attitudes.

I agree with you it does on occasion seem ludicrous people's enthusiasm outstrips their ability and can self install patently dangerous systems and I see a time it will become far more regulated than it currently is

 

[Markd]

The thing is that as far as I'm aware the "regulations" such as there are only apply to the fixed elements of any system.
And for most of us who own our vans and don't hire them out we don't have to have them inspected at all.
The same probably goes for the age of pigtails and regulators where we may be advised to change stuff but are not obliged to?

 

[runnach]

Your are correct in the sense privately owned vans have pretty much carte blanche to do what they want and their is no obligation to gas check or the person doing it competent and have quals

Equally the pigtails and regulators there is no obligation to change all that starts if you rent for hire and reward


Whether it is wise to ignore routine maintenance is a separate matter a bit like running cars and not bothering with servicing

It only takes a few deaths ,and I can. See legislation becoming stricter like I I is with refrigerant gases......of course it could have implication with insurance

On touring caravans it is suggested tyres are changed every 5 years and one or two insurers I'm told make it a policy condition, but I don't think there is any specific legislation ...it seems the grey water of motorhomee

 

[Nabsim]

Can I just mention the 5 years for hoses/pigtails but, doesn’t this only apply to rubber not stainless types?

Not strictly true that things don’t apply to private vehicles as you have to read through vehicle construction and use and see which bits apply. Not something most of us would think of though

 

[Markd]

Thanks for the clarification - so when we see Truma being quoted as saying that things must be done what we are actually seeing is advice from a salesman?
It may be sound advice but it's not required by law or regulation which some are implying (saying?) it is.
I put a bbq point into my system and then had it gas checked and will get further checks every couple of years and hopefully my certified checker will continue to offer me advice based on the condition of the system rather than slavishly following arbitrary timescales

 

[Sharpie]

I am not a salesman for Truma, nor anything else.

By all means think that important bits of your system will last forever. In other territories they think differently and apply strict rules requiring inspection and replacement of the key parts as a precautionary principle. Here it seems there is no such legislation, at the least things are "advisory".

I don't know where that 5 year figure popped up from, not even bothering to trace who started that.

As for "stainless steel" pigtails, well they are just the same as any other. Internally they still have a tube made of some sort of polymer. And the manufacturers still advise replacement every ten years. Yes they may be more durable, I wouldn't know. They do superficially seem impressive, but no, they aren't actually much different.

There used to be scare stories, FUD, to encourage you to fit them, otherwise bad things might happen.

A standard pigtail is just as good, functionally, you can get ones for a little more with an over-braid (SS) which is there to prevent rats chewing through them, as they can do, and make it look shinier.

 

[runnach]

Can I just mention the 5 years for hoses/pigtails but, doesn’t this only apply to rubber not stainless types?

Not strictly true that things don’t apply to private vehicles as you have to read through vehicle construction and use and see which bits apply. Not something most of us would think of though

Nabsim , it is my understanding that construction and use regs are not applicable on the habitation system unless they are used as a vehicle propellant . Which as you are aware is not normally the case

The stainless braided style of pigtails introduce a bit of controversy as to replacement some advocate 5 years the same as a "rubber" hose the lining is still neoprene and can't be inspected as such . They have a legitimate roll in that protected from errant rodents ,less likely the pipe degrading from sun bleaching and are useful in areas where there is potential abrasion

 

[runnach]

Thanks for the clarification - so when we see Truma being quoted as saying that things must be done what we are actually seeing is advice from a salesman?
It may be sound advice but it's not required by law or regulation which some are implying (saying?) it is.
I put a bbq point into my system and then had it gas checked and will get further checks every couple of years and hopefully my certified checker will continue to offer me advice based on the condition of the system rather than slavishly following arbitrary timescales

ignoring manufacturers advice can have warranty issues and insurance implications perhaps and the loafer clad ,dog tooth jacket salesman may only be the messenger, while there maybe no legal onus the practical one is to work within guidelines

My personal view having 282 van static fleet for a major holiday company who enjoy the same LAV regulations with one or two deviations ..was that my job was to pass the van not fail it so I could issue a landlords certificate which is a legal obligation ..I also undertook a lot of private work for owners who rented .

I took the view which hopefully was pragmatic ,hoses changed every five years unless visual inspection suggested they had broke down and it was prudent to replace earlier ...because you can't see inside the pipes belt and braces just change them for the sake of a few quid

The 10 year suggestion on regulators I took a different view , it is easily possible to identify defect ..I.e letting by and using a manometer check pressures are within tolerance

As regards your bbq point it has become part of your system so if testing there are several things to consider firstly installed correctly pipe work correct size, supported correctly sufficient gaps to adjacent pipes and cross overs. Secondly it is gas tight for obvious reasons and again easily checked using a manometer .

I suspect if you have a regular person checking ...then going forwards he will have checked the first part so a visual it's not worked loose and will test the overall system

 

[Sharpie]

My gas inspector for the static caravan looked after many more than that, constantly busy, booked up weeks ahead. At the last one I asked if he would check my camper too but he explained that he was not qualified to do that. Nevertheless he gave me some useful advice,

I won't bore you with the details, but checking out a regulator for example is not difficult, the better ones already have a standard test port to make it easy to connect the simple equipment needed.







inspev

 

[Markd]

I thought I was being clear that Truma were being quoted as an "authority' on when items must be renewed; they have a vested interest - they are the salesmen to whom I was referring.
I will continue to have my van checked every few years rather than annually as "required' by those in the business of selling inspections.
I'm afraid there's too much advice masquerading as regulation and I'm inclined to take a lot of it with a pinch of salt.
My insurance company say that gas installations must be inspected or installed by competent persons. They don't require any inspection after the initial installation or a change in installation.
It's my understanding that anything before the regulator is not part of the "installation" which is why the refillable bottle firms are happy to sell direct to the public.
Again when I installed my Gaslow system I did it myself but had a gas check afterwards - the inspector looked at it and it was recorded as being present but it wasn't formally "tested"

As a matter of interest I note that Hamilton gas products suggest 20 years for Stainless Steel pigtails.

 

[Nabsim]

I haven't read any of the construction and use regs since I stopped messing with trikes so can’t say what, how or if certain Channa. Some of the lpg regs and /or cods mention compliance with them though.

I can’t remember which bits Charlie said though. Should be new stuff out later this year I think it is.

 

[Sharpie]

For sure Truma are in business to promote their own products, which may well exceed the minimum requirements of the local legislation. That's business, no shame in that. Nevertheless they quote chapter and verse of the legislation that applies in Germany and France, which I see no reason to disbelieve. Being a German company I expect that their products do comply with their own regulations, I don't expect that they also make inferior stuff for other markets. At the least they offer a system that has credibility, you may choose to use it, or not, no compulsion.

It may be that it is overly onerous, perhaps the industry of official gas inspectors, regulator and pigtail manufacturers have lobbied the legislators to put in a regime to further their own interests. Conspiracy theorists may agree. Or perhaps they are mostly just trying to look after their customers' best interests.

Here it seems we are more lightly regulated, for our vehicles. And our houses.

My house for example still has the original "consumer unit" containing just three actual re-wirable fuses. One for the downstairs ring main, one for upstairs, one for the lights. No RCD. When I replaced my gas cooker many years ago I just went to B&Q, bought the necessary pigtail, screwed it on using the correct PTFE gas tape and plugged it into the convenient cooker point. AFAIK you may still do that.

I did check it carefully after a mouse infestation, one had got in and neatly nibbled around a rubber pressure cooker gasket rendering it useless. I don't know whether it gained any sustenance from it but it obviously found it tasty.

I couldn't rent it out, or maybe even sell it, in this state, but can continue to live here without any interference from inspection authorities.

Whereas kitchen fitters are not even allowed to cut off a moulded-on plug from an appliance then screw on another one, so have to go through contortions to complete their installation without calling in a registered sparky.

When it comes to household electrics I like to think that I am a highly competent person. Not so much for gas, but also take an interest in it, as you know, and am cognisant of some things that could go wrong, which may not be immediately obvious to many, nevermind those with a blase attitude..

In France, and elsewhere they use a completely different approach, highly regulated, and far superior IMO. We rely on fuses in our plugs and fingers crossed that the ring mains are continuous, and not overloaded. Pretty much every where else each circuit is protected by it's own circuit breaker., appropriately sized.