End of the 3.5 T limit?

[wildebus]

That wasn't my words, but rather what the 'experts' said on the video I cited in post #22. There, they say that tuggers who passed their test after 1997 can't legally tow an outfit > 3.5 tonnes either in Europe or in Northern Ireland. Personally, it doesn't affect me and so I haven't expended the time and energy to go down the legal rabbit hole over this.

I didn't watch the video. I find him not very interesting to watch so don't bother.

It is fairly simply laid out on the UK Govt website and doesn't need two blokes waffling on in a podcast to read it ...

BEFORE:
The Limit was 3500KG TOTAL weight of combination; or 4250KG TOTAL weight (as long as Trailer less than 750KG)

SINCE December 2021 (so a while now)

You can drive a vehicle with a maximum authorised mass (MAM) of 3,500kg with a trailer. (so that the Vehicle weight ALONE now)

Category BE​

You can drive a vehicle with a maximum authorised mass (MAM) of 3,500kg with a trailer.

The size of the trailer depends on the BE ‘valid from’ date shown on your licence. If the date is:

• before 19 January 2013, you can tow any size trailer within the towing limits of the vehicle
• on or after 19 January 2013, you can tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 3,500kg within the towing limits of the vehicle

So someone on a standard car license passed at any time could now perfectly legally drive a 3.5t van and pull (theoretically) a 3.5t caravan behind them, because ... "DVLA will update your driving licence record to show that you’re allowed to tow trailers. You do not need to contact DVLA for this to happen. It will be done automatically. You’ll get category BE added to your driving licence when you next apply to get a new driving licence"

 

[GeoffL]

@wildebus : I hope you are correct. However, what the UK Government says might apply only in mainland UK. A quick check of the Northern Ireland website shows that an additional test is still required to tow greater than the category B limit. What those two guys you won't listen to said was that a UK BE entitlement gained after 1997 without passing an additional test is not recognised in the EU or NI. The link below is to the NI government website where they still say you must pass an additional test to obtain BE entitlement:

How do I obtain a BE driving licence?​

• You must hold a current full category B driving licence
• You must first pass a driver theory test in the category B (if not already passed to obtain your category B licence)
• Apply online or in person at an NDLS centre for a category BE learner permit.
• After passing the BE driving test you can then apply to add category BE to your full driving licence.

Cars and Trailers - National Driver Licence Service

Towing a trailer with the correct car and licence is important, find out the application form you'll need to tow a large trailer.

www.ndls.ie

As I wrote upthread, I'm not personally affected and so haven't gone down that particular rabbit hole in depth...

 

[wildebus]

So who knows if they look on a driving licence can tell if a category was granted, or a test passed? It is not possible as far as I know to tell. Is there a little * next to the BE on the license?

Everyone knows NI has a weird set of rules for their RESIDENTS, but how is anyone meant to take a larger car/caravan outfit abroad if what those two blokes are saying is correct. They cannot as Car and trailer driving tests have now stopped. You can no longer book one, at least in the UK.
So while I personally am not affected in any way by any of these restrictions either, I am annoyed by misinformation, especially when it is presented as some kind of factual information.

Those two blokes going on about something and putting their own interpretation on it is no different to the various people who claim various things are required on MOT when they are not - and they base it on their local MOT tester who has got it wrong.
Facts? I don't think so.

 

[GeoffL]

So who knows if they look on a driving licence can tell if a category was granted, or a test passed? It is not possible as far as I know to tell. Is there a little * next to the BE on the license?

It's on your licence (column "10" on the reverse of photocard licenses). While the same info isn't on the old paper licences, it's easy for authorities to check because those dates are given on the DVLA online record.

While I know that basic car licences are honoured abroad (especially where supported by an IDP), I know that in certain countries a UK licence only permits you to drive what that country's basic car licence does (e.g. Australia only lets you drive up to 4.5 tonnes together with a trailer up to 9 tonnes not for hire or reward even if you have a full UK C+E licence).

I've now gone a little way down the rabbit hole, and it's by no means clear. I suspect that the text for Cat B on page 21 of the EU directive document (clicky link) applies. There, it states:

Without prejudice to the provisions of type-approval rules for the vehicles concerned, motor vehicles in this category may be combined with a trailer with a maximum authorised mass exceeding 750 kg, provided that the maximum authorised mass of this combination does not exceed 4 250 kg. In case such a combination exceeds 3 500 kg,​

Member States shall, in accordance with the provisions of Annex V, require that this combination shall only be driven after:​

— a training has been completed, or​

— a test of skills and behaviour has been passed.​

However, it's unclear whether this 'carries over' to cat BE, but if it does then those guys are correct as the requirement to pass the B+E test was introduced under EU legislation and UK has unilaterally varied this. However, it's also possible to read that directive as only explicitly requiring a test for cat B -- but there's then the nagging feeling left from Annex V, which refers to Annex II, which details explicit testing for category BE...

FWIW, I too abhor misinformation, which is why I almost invariably link to evidence. That said, it's up to each to make up their own mind...

 

[wildebus]

It's on your licence (column "10" on the reverse of photocard licenses). While the same info isn't on the old paper licences, it's easy for authorities to check because those dates are given on the DVLA online record.

What I meant when I said "So who knows if they look on a driving licence can tell if a category was granted, or a test passed?" was who knows WHETHER it is just a category granted OR a test passed".
The Date in column 10 is not automatically the date of a test that is passed, that is the date the entitlement started from - for whatever reason.
As an example, I have a date of 06.06.14 for category AM on my license. I didn't take any test for anything in 2014, I just got given an entitlement to drive whatever is in category A from that date. BUT ... who knows I DID NOT take a test for Category AM in June 2014?
Repeat the above for a date in BE

While I know that basic car licences are honoured abroad (especially where supported by an IDP), I know that in certain countries a UK licence only permits you to drive what that country's basic car licence does (e.g. Australia only lets you drive up to 4.5 tonnes together with a trailer up to 9 tonnes not for hire or reward even if you have a full UK C+E licence).

I've now gone a little way down the rabbit hole, and it's by no means clear. I suspect that the text for Cat B on page 21 of the EU directive document (clicky link) applies. There, it states:

Without prejudice to the provisions of type-approval rules for the vehicles concerned, motor vehicles in this category may be combined with a trailer with a maximum authorised mass exceeding 750 kg, provided that the maximum authorised mass of this combination does not exceed 4 250 kg. In case such a combination exceeds 3 500 kg,​

Member States shall, in accordance with the provisions of Annex V, require that this combination shall only be driven after:​

— a training has been completed, or​

— a test of skills and behaviour has been passed.​

However, it's unclear whether this 'carries over' to cat BE, but if it does then those guys are correct as the requirement to pass the B+E test was introduced under EU legislation and UK has unilaterally varied this. However, it's also possible to read that directive as only explicitly requiring a test for cat B -- but there's then the nagging feeling left from Annex V, which refers to Annex II, which details explicit testing for category BE...

And see the earlier bit ... whose to say there was not training completed or a test of skill carried out? have you got the piece of paper that was given to you 40-50 years ago to show you passed your Driving Test if someone asks for proof? No, you shown them your driving license.

The license may not prove you have passed a test for Towing or not, but the same goes for anything on it. I have a full license for driving a 50cc Moped, same as probably anyone with a full (B) license, but I've never even ridden a 50cc Moped let alone passed a test on one. But if someone asked me if I passed a test, I could say yes and they could not prove me wrong. I could have passed a moped test in the morning and a car test in the afternoon for all they know which is why the dates are the same.
The license is how it is shown you have an entitlement for a certain driving activity and if you pass a test for something, that extra competency is shown on the license. But it is not a record of tests passed. That doesn't even exist (which is why you hear these stories of people having lost a category sometimes (bike usually) on a license renewal and only way to get it back is to take a test).

FWIW, I too abhor misinformation, which is why I almost invariably link to evidence. That said, it's up to each to make up their own mind...

 

[GeoffL]

What I meant when I said "So who knows if they look on a driving licence can tell if a category was granted, or a test passed?" was who knows WHETHER it is just a category granted OR a test passed".
The Date in column 10 is not automatically the date of a test that is passed, that is the date the entitlement started from - for whatever reason.

What the guy being interviewed said is that the date the entitlement was granted, together with knowing the rules of that time, is sufficient to be able to say whether an entitlement was just granted or whether a test was passed. However, that's not the issue, which is whether the entitlement was granted at a time when EU and UK were 'in sync' or granted after that date, with the cut-off being 16 Dec 2021. Prior to that date, UK and EU were harmonised, governed by Directive 2006/126/EC; after that date, the UK changed the rules so that all car drivers could now tow up to 3.5 tonnes without needed to take a BE specific test. Entitlement gained prior to 1997 was 'grandfathered in'.

So, any entitlement to BE gained between 1997 and 16 Dec 2021 was under the EU Directive and must have been by way of passing a test while any after that date probably not. So if, for example, you have some date in 1999 in column 10 for cat B and some date in 2001 for cat BE, then you must have passed the B+E test. However, if you have some date after 16 Dec 2021 for BE in column 10 then it was probably granted without a test...

That said, as I noted above, the actual EU directive is ambiguous and it's not clear whether passing a test is compulsory only if the combination is between 3,500kg and 4,250kg or whether it is for all combinations heavier than 3,500kg.

 

[Caz]

My son was very jealous when he saw my shiny new licence with dates alongside everything except C D CE and DE. He says it would cost him a fortune to take the tests and get that lot added on to his (post 1997) licence. It does all seem rather unfair.

 

[wildebus]

What the guy being interviewed said is that the date the entitlement was granted, together with knowing the rules of that time, is sufficient to be able to say whether an entitlement was just granted or whether a test was passed. However, that's not the issue, which is whether the entitlement was granted at a time when EU and UK were 'in sync' or granted after that date, with the cut-off being 16 Dec 2021. Prior to that date, UK and EU were harmonised, governed by Directive 2006/126/EC; after that date, the UK changed the rules so that all car drivers could now tow up to 3.5 tonnes without needed to take a BE specific test. Entitlement gained prior to 1997 was 'grandfathered in'.

So, any entitlement to BE gained between 1997 and 16 Dec 2021 was under the EU Directive and must have been by way of passing a test while any after that date probably not. So if, for example, you have some date in 1999 in column 10 for cat B and some date in 2001 for cat BE, then you must have passed the B+E test. However, if you have some date after 16 Dec 2021 for BE in column 10 then it was probably granted without a test...

That said, as I noted above, the actual EU directive is ambiguous and it's not clear whether passing a test is compulsory only if the combination is between 3,500kg and 4,250kg or whether it is for all combinations heavier than 3,500kg.

The word "Probably" is not good enough. Too many assumptions by far.
Anyway, makes no difference to me and I am out of this discussion as not interested enough to delve in any deeper.

FWIW, I think it is daft that people can tow large trailers without any demonstation of ability and being able to drive heavy vehicles such as a 7.5t lorry in the same way is just as daft.
My sister had a neighbour who was a school teacher. He passed his test one day and literally the next day he was asked to drive the school minibus full of kids AND towing a trailer. mental.

 

[GeoffL]

The word "Probably" is not good enough. Too many assumptions by far.
Anyway, makes no difference to me and I am out of this discussion as not interested enough to delve in any deeper.

FWIW, I think it is daft that people can tow large trailers without any demonstation of ability and being able to drive heavy vehicles such as a 7.5t lorry in the same way is just as daft.
My sister had a neighbour who was a school teacher. He passed his test one day and literally the next day he was asked to drive the school minibus full of kids AND towing a trailer. mental.

While the word "probably" might not be good enough, it's enough to imply you could be on the wrong side of an assumption -- i.e. you assume you can do something but you fall foul of bureaucracy and it turns out you can't. Put simply, there's more than a hint that anyone who got their BE entitlement because of UK unilaterally changing the rules might catch a cold and it really is up to each to do their own investigation and satisfy themselves as to where they stand.

 

[yeoblade]

The word "Probably" is not good enough. Too many assumptions by far.
Anyway, makes no difference to me and I am out of this discussion as not interested enough to delve in any deeper.

FWIW, I think it is daft that people can tow large trailers without any demonstation of ability and being able to drive heavy vehicles such as a 7.5t lorry in the same way is just as daft.
My sister had a neighbour who was a school teacher. He passed his test one day and literally the next day he was asked to drive the school minibus full of kids AND towing a trailer. mental.

I too remember, when 14, a lady school teacher taking us out in the school minibus, it was scary. I believe she normally drove a mini.

 

[TonyEmm]

The new category is not out yet even if it's coming at all
Sent my licence in last week to get hgv /coach removed and it's back with a extra year or 2 added to the C1, and the rest of groups.
Very quick service .... now able to keep the over 3500kgs motorhome another 3 years.
View attachment 124038

The codes shown on your C1E category show you must be wearing glasses (or contact lenses) and restricted to 8250kgs GTW. The latter is standard practice after age 70.

 

[wildebus]

The codes shown on your C1E category show you must be wearing glasses (or contact lenses) and restricted to 8250kgs GTW. The latter is standard practice after age 70.

107 restriction is standard when C1 awarded with B. Age not a factor for that.

 

[Apollo 13]

Having watched the video about Europe's plans to allow higher weights for standard drivers licences, the argument does make sense, and I'd appreciate it if something similar was allowed here in the UK, because 3.5tns does restrict the potential use of the full capacity of our tanks, including fuel and fresh water, and I expect in time it will happen due to the benefits of harmonisation, but I also appreciate that my maxi Ducato is down rated at 3.5tn, because it allows me to access many towns, villages and bridges that heavier vans can't.
I'm stuck with a medical licence from a very old head injury, and I wonder in the 3.5tn limit might stick, or be lifted upto the 4.2tn base line. And will Europe and the UK raise the road weight limits (not bridges etc) for towns and villages to allow the heavier vehicles of all types of propulsion to access the locations. It's going to be interesting.

 

[mark61]

Wouldn't get too excited, modern light commercials are something like 250 to 350 KG more than they where in the late 80's early 90's and any electric van with a decent range will add another +- 700 KG.

I'd still have a current van over an 80's one though.