Elterwater quarry Lake District

[Fisherman]

Yes there are idiots amongst us I have no doubt about that.
But there are to many places being lost adding to the problems.
If many of the barriers and signs were removed this would go a long way to preventing overcrowded parking up in the fewer places that still remain.

Honestly in all of my travels over the last three years, I have only once saw a Motorhome owner being inconsideratel blocking others in, and he was French. But when I pointed out to him that what he was doing was not acceptable, he apologised and moved on. Possibly I have been fortunate, or maybe I am just naive, but all I have met are pleasant affable people simply wanting to enjoy their pastime Motorhoming. I don’t see all of this apparent misbehaving by us, but maybe it’s different up here, I really don’t know.
But I have seen plenty of serious problems from others. Litter being dumped, toilets being vandalised, drunkenness, loutish behaviour, setting up barbecues were they are not allowed, racing up and down car parks, playing loud music, and on and on.
It seems to me that there are problems in some car parks, but we always seem to bear the brunt.

 

[caledonia]

The way I see this is each year Caledonia thousands of new vans are added with less and less places being made available. Also there seems to be a growing number of vans coming over to the uk from Europe adding to the problem. They are not familiar with what’s going on over here, and have difficulties they would not have back home.

Earlier this month I was parked up in the forestry commission carpark overlooking Stromeferry. I arrived around 4 and I was alone. By 7 there were five of us with two French, a Dutch and a German filling the small carpark. Later on two French vans turned up and had to go elsewhere. I told them to head up to the main road were they should get in ok.

Then again at morvich I was the only Brit on the cemetery car park with two German and a French van.
Ratagan was the same again with me being the only Brit amongst Europeans.

There was no problems at morvich or ratagan with plenty of space, (apart from the wee midges). :mad1:
There are no real problems up here, you can normally find somewhere to go, but not so down south.
I have only once camped in England, I mainly do it up here and twice in Wales.
But if things continue as they are with places being closed, things will only get a whole lot worse.

The foreign vans tend to do it the right way arrive late and leave early and spend their day travelling and sight seeing. I agree they do tend to be sheep and don’t mind cramming a lot of vans into a small car park but that’s the aire mentality. As I said it’s the taking up residence that gets locals backs up.

 

[Channa]

I've learned that a small number of motorhomers have taken direct action against a PSPO banning overnight parking at Leeming Bar claiming that the PSPO is unlawful in that it does not comply with legislation. With a limited success. North Yorks Council have temporarily suspended enforcing the PSPO while it takes legal advice.

The PSPO is aimed at overnighting trucks at the industrial estate there but, to avoid discrimination accusations, it includes all vehicles - including motorhomes.

The claims that the PSPO is unlawful are that 1. - PSPOs must not restict otherwise lawful use of the highway. This apparently is a specific requirement and a TRO or byelaw must be used - not a PSPO. The second is that signs on the highway must be authorised by central government and signs for the PSPO are not authorised. The authorising document is called the TSRGD2016. And that translates as Traffic Signs Regulation something or other.

This might have implications for other councils who have used PSPO for traffic regulation. Brighton and Hove for a start and Rother; I know there are others but don't come to mind right now.

The part highlighted confuses me slightly Tom, It is my understanding there is no legal right to park on any highway , it is tolerated of course but nothing in legislation that says you can, It would follow therefore by simply parking there is a restriction obstruction of the highway and parking is not a legal use. SO the pSPOs are valid.

Generally and ignoring commercial interests aside, Authorities are of the mindset the reduction of wildspots is of no relevance to the motorhome community, there are plenty of authorised places to camp via the clubs end of their argument, The fact people might not want to pay money or pay for facilities they dont require is of no relevance facilitlies embellish the "attraction of such places primarily you pay to park /camp for the night

Channa

 

[maureenandtom]

The public outrage usually given by council as reason for restrictions is never supported by evidence. One council was honest enough to admit that its evidence was anecdotal and therefore unreliable In Kiwi's reply, above, the council did not claim public outrage - though it did, and was proved wrong, when it initially introduced the restriction. I had thought the council had done it legally and I'm very slightly amused that the council thought to do it without lawful backing. I wonder if being proved wrong all that time ago influenced the reply now not to claim there had been complaints. There had been none.

I can not think of even one council restriction that was imposed for the reasons (public complaints) that the counci said existed. Not one.

There has been a phenomenal increase in ownership of motorhomes in Britain. And everywhere. If there was a public outrage about us then the public would not be so keen to join us. Restrictions are not due to public complaints about us. They never are.

There will always be whingers - but there are very few complainants.

 

[Fisherman]

The public outrage usually given by council as reason for restrictions is never supported by evidence. One council was honest enough to admit that its evidence was anecdotal and therefore unreliable In Kiwi's reply, above, the council did not claim public outrage - though it did, and was proved wrong, when it initially introduced the restriction. I had thought the council had done it legally and I'm very slightly amused that the council thought to do it without lawful backing. I wonder if being proved wrong all that time ago influenced the reply now not to claim there had been complaints. There had been none.

I can not think of even one council restriction that was imposed for the reasons (public complaints) that the counci said existed. Not one.

There has been a phenomenal increase in ownership of motorhomes in Britain. And everywhere. If there was a public outrage about us then the public would not be so keen to join us. Restrictions are not due to public complaints about us. They never are.

There will always be whingers - but there are very few complainants.

And sadly they seem to be winning.
As each facility is lost and each new Motorhome registered the problem will only get worse.
What’s required is a national policy, not local nimbyism, dished out by people who are ignorant about us.
And yes some have to behave better, but that will never change.
There will always be a minority of idiots giving us all a name we don’t deserve.

 

[maureenandtom]

The part highlighted confuses me slightly Tom, It is my understanding there is no legal right to park on any highway , it is tolerated of course but nothing in legislation that says you can, It would follow therefore by simply parking there is a restriction obstruction of the highway and parking is not a legal use. SO the pSPOs are valid.

Generally and ignoring commercial interests aside, Authorities are of the mindset the reduction of wildspots is of no relevance to the motorhome community, there are plenty of authorised places to camp via the clubs end of their argument, The fact people might not want to pay money or pay for facilities they dont require is of no relevance facilitlies embellish the "attraction of such places primarily you pay to park /camp for the night

Channa

Thanks Channa. You'll understand that I'm not involved in the direct action at Leemnig Bar? Just an interested observer. Thanks for opening that bit up.

People believe, because we are told so, that the only Hiighway Rights we have are to pass and repass. Without looking it up - that's only half of it. The other half is - and for all other legal purposes. So, on the long held principle that we are permitted anything which is not forbidden we can use the Highway for any legal purpose. So, we have to be notified of a restriction if authority wants restriction.. No Parking. No Stopping. Speed Limit ... and so on. But there has to be a legal restriction. No overnighting!!

So far as a PSPO on public roads are concerned then I think the direct actioneers are relying on Sections 64 and 65 of the Act; Here is Section 65 but 64 is worth looking at too.



(1)A public spaces protection order may not restrict the public right of way over a highway that is—

(a)a special road;

(b)a trunk road;

(c)a classified or principal road;

(d)a strategic road;

(e)a highway in England of a description prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

(f)a highway in Wales of a description prescribed by regulations made by the Welsh Ministers.


North Yorks Council seems to be worried enough to have suspended, temporarily, enforcement of their order. But the direct actioneers are using other arguments too. Despite them telling the council in advance of their actions, the council has not yet issued a Fixed Penalty Notice.

 

[caledonia]

And sadly they seem to be winning.
As each facility is lost and each new Motorhome registered the problem will only get worse.
What’s required is a national policy, not local nimbyism, dished out by people who are ignorant about us.
And yes some have to behave better, but that will never change.
There will always be a minority of idiots giving us all a name we don’t deserve.

Things are changing in Scotland. Us Scots are a canny bunch and we are realising it better to take a few quid of folk than banning them. Findhorn is just one of the latest places to change their attitude to overnight parking in the dunes carpark.

 

[Fisherman]

Things are changing in Scotland. Us Scots are a canny bunch and we are realising it better to take a few quid of folk than banning them. Findhorn is just one of the latest places to change their attitude to overnight parking in the dunes carpark.

Yes agreed on that, things are so much better up here.
Also I have nothing against paying for facilities offered, better than barriers and signage.

Scotland is full of great places to park up, using common sense and being considerate of others.

I always feel like a visitor wherever we park up, being tolerated by those who live there.