Electrical installation

[Littleolddusty]

Hello to you all this is my first time on a forum and would like some advice/ thoughts on my approach to electrics for my old mk7 transit van. Have read so much on the subject and head is spinning with options? So I’m thinking now to keep it simple, my idea is to get a big fog star 460 battery with some solar panels, for fridge, 2kw diesel heater, phone chargers and avoid alternator charging so then no chance of burning the thing out in the middle of nowhere. Eventually get a bluetti power pack for 230v, Iv got a mobile mains kit RCD from camping that I’ll use for shore power so I could just use a battery charger on site for topping up the batteries, planning on going to sites every 4 days for a shower anyway, missus will go mad for admitting that We are planning on going to Europe and read they are strict with their regs so thinking this setup shouldn’t cause any problems oppose to me trying to wire up the lot as an all singing all dancing set-up, if I was to go down this path I’d go with the victron gear but just to expensive. We are having some amazing times up till now with a few makita batteries to charge up phones so think we would be happy with anything extra. Any advice would be appreciated, especially on wiring up the 12v system, thinking the wiring wouldn’t have to be that big, the fogstar charger is only 40amps too. Do you think I’ll regret this? Is it daft?





Mike

 

[Robmac]

Welcome along.

I don't think it's daft. With a 460AH battery and solar you should be able to get by without the alternator if you are hooking up every 4 days. Personally I would still be connected to the alternator though as it is a great backup, you can always isolate the battery if you don't want the alternator to charge it every time you drive.

You will need lots of solar though, especially at this time of year. We got by with a mobile mains kit for years, but I would recommend a hatch to feed it into the van rather than a partly open window. Power packs are coming on in leaps and bounds and are getting cheaper so always a good shout. I'm no expert by the way, there are people far better qualified than me who will be along shortly hopefully.

I like what you are proposing. Keep it simple and the less that can go wrong the better. Others may well differ though.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Littleolddusty]

Welcome along.

I don't think it's daft. With a 460AH battery and solar you should be able to get by without the alternator if you are hooking up every 4 days. Personally I would still be connected to the alternator though as it is a great backup, you can always isolate the battery if you don't want the alternator to charge it every time you drive.

You will need lots of solar though, especially at this time of year. We got by with a mobile mains kit for years, but I would recommend a hatch to feed it into the van rather than a partly open window. Power packs are coming on in leaps and bounds and are getting cheaper so always a good shout. I'm no expert by the way, there are people far better qualified than me who will be along shortly hopefully.

I like what you are proposing. Keep it simple and the less that can go wrong the better. Others may well differ though.

Best of luck to you.

Hey, cheers for that, I have got the hatch to wire up soon just waiting for when I decide what and were to install everything, at the moment I have to fumble under the van to connect up . MOT is due this month so going to ask garage what type of alternator I have? Might help with deciding what to do next, maybe get 20amp one guessing this wouldn’t put to much stress on it.

Indecisive mike

 

[Nabsim]

Starting out from scratch is probably worth looking at powering everything from the Bluetti and then buy some add on battery packs. Will reduce the amount of kit you need and costs drastically. Please confirm this yourself but I think the Bluetti is one of few that can power a diesel heater without doing anything else to it.

I am not a fan of power banks but your situation strikes me as ideal opportunity

 

[Makzine]

Haven't clue on the electrics but hello and welcome from Kent.

 

[Littleolddusty]

Starting out from scratch is probably worth looking at powering everything from the Bluetti and then buy some add on battery packs. Will reduce the amount of kit you need and costs drastically. Please confirm this yourself but I think the Bluetti is one of few that can power a diesel heater without doing anything else to it.

I am not a fan of power banks but your situation strikes me as ideal opportunity

Think that was our first idea then past few weeks Iv gone down the rabbit hole of alsorts of systems !! Now I don’t know my arse from my elbow!! Really all we are most bothered about is powering the diesel heater and like you said it can do that, think that’s the best way forward for us, thanks for pointing it out
What puts you off them? Don’t know anybody that’s had one so I’m clueless as to how good they are.

Mike

 

[Littleolddusty]

Hello makzine

Haven't clue on the electrics but hello and welcome from Kent.

 

[Littleolddusty]

Wow just s

Think that was our first idea then past few weeks Iv gone down the rabbit hole of alsorts of systems !! Now I don’t know my arse from my elbow!! Really all we are most bothered about is powering the diesel heater and like you said it can do that, think that’s the best way forward for us, thanks for pointing it out
What puts you off them? Don’t know anybody that’s had one so I’m clueless as to how good they are.

Mike

Wow just much they are ?

 

[wildebus]

The Portable Power Station method is getting popular as the prices drop. But the cost of Lithium Batteries is also dropping of course. Reckon on paying at least twice per Ah/kWh on the Power Station option.
You mention a 460Ah Fogstar battery? Have a look how much that same 460Ah of capacity would cost in the form of a Portable Power Station.
If you were to go that Fogstar (or any other 'naked' battery) route, adding in an inverter to give you 240V AC output would be a fairly simple step and at a much better price than buying a Power Station just to essentially get an inverter.
If you want the physical flexibility of a Portable Power Station, then that is one thing, but as an alternative to having a fitted electrics setup in a converted Campervan, IMO it would come a very poor second in both ease of use and cost-effectiveness (at least in terms of kit cost).
But to counter my own argument, at least in the ease of use part, I am someone who likes sockets to be where I want to use them and completely hate trailing leads all over the place. I cannot picture me in a van where EVERYTHING is plugged into one box and a mess of wires coming out of it like Alien. You may be different

If you were to go for a "normal" electrics setup but would not do a self-installation, the cost of the install could easily push the cost beyond that of a Power Station and that is something to consider.
Also, if this old Mk7 Transit (I have no idea how old a Mk7 would be?) is just a stepping stone or a toe in the water to see if you like it, and you are likely to start again after a year or so on a newer, bigger or better conversion, then the Power Station can be a good option to save spending money on installation costs you won't recoop.
But if it were a conversion you plan to keep and enjoy for a few years, drop the Power Station idea, even if it were just for the AC (unless you will be using it elsewhere as well) and go for a conventional setup which will pretty well be fit and forget and more enjoyable in the longer term.
You said the Victron kit will be too expensive? Try comparing the part costs for a regular installation, even with Victron kit, against an Power Station setup of similar power.


PS. There may be some comments on the line of suggesting using myself for the setup? Just to preempt that ... I am taking a break from any kind of significant installations for quite a while so that would not be an option should it be suggested.

 

[merl]

Hiya and welcome
You have a lot of options and your best choice will depend on how you use the van and your budget as well as you're skill set and if you intend to keep it for a while. Ask 10 people what you're best to do and you'll get 10 different answers which doesn't help but most folks will be making suggestions from their own experiences of what works for them and their circumstances will very likely be different to you.
Here are my feelings:-
I wouldn't want to miss an opportunity for charging so personally I wouldn't be ruling out the alternator, you can get a 30-40A battery to battery charger for around £100 and your alt should be fine with that sort of current, I know a lot of folks use higher power B2Bs with similar alternators and I don't think failures are common.
I THINK (someone with actual personal experience will confirm no doubt) you'll need around 100AH of battery capacity per day to run a small domestic under counter fridge via an invertor so on the face of it you're cutting your power capacity close with 460AH, it wont leave you a great deal spare for running other items especially if you don't drive/use alternator or if there's little sun.
Personally I've never seen the point of an all in one power station, bang for your buck you'll be better off buying separate batteries, inverter, and charger and you'll also have the options to fit these separates where they'll fit best and utilize available space better, however if you're planning of changing your van any time soon and you don't fancy removing and reinstalling then that changes things.
Now for a somewhat controversial thought. Rather than using say 460AH of battery and relying on some solar, why not consider not bothering with solar at all and putting the money you save on solar panels and controller towards extra battery capacity? 3 days off 1 day on is what we use because the cassette needs emptying and as you say we can take a shower, you just recharge you're sizeable battery bank when you're on site and off you go again without any issues if there's no sun.
Finally on a more 'techy' point, using a 24V system rather than the usual 12V will give you a little benefit from a more efficient system and cables needn't be as heavy. The slight downside is you cant upgrade the system by adding just one 12v battery, you have to add 2 at a time (24v a pop).
Good luck

 

[Littleolddusty]

The Portable Power Station method is getting popular as the prices drop. But the cost of Lithium Batteries is also dropping of course. Reckon on paying at least twice per Ah/kWh on the Power Station option.
You mention a 460Ah Fogstar battery? Have a look how much that same 460Ah of capacity would cost in the form of a Portable Power Station.
If you were to go that Fogstar (or any other 'naked' battery) route, adding in an inverter to give you 240V AC output would be a fairly simple step and at a much better price than buying a Power Station just to essentially get an inverter.
If you want the physical flexibility of a Portable Power Station, then that is one thing, but as an alternative to having a fitted electrics setup in a converted Campervan, IMO it would come a very poor second in both ease of use and cost-effectiveness (at least in terms of kit cost).
But to counter my own argument, at least in the ease of use part, I am someone who likes sockets to be where I want to use them and completely hate trailing leads all over the place. I cannot picture me in a van where EVERYTHING is plugged into one box and a mess of wires coming out of it like Alien. You may be different

If you were to go for a "normal" electrics setup but would not do a self-installation, the cost of the install could easily push the cost beyond that of a Power Station and that is something to consider.
Also, if this old Mk7 Transit (I have no idea how old a Mk7 would be?) is just a stepping stone or a toe in the water to see if you like it, and you are likely to start again after a year or so on a newer, bigger or better conversion, then the Power Station can be a good option to save spending money on installation costs you won't recoop.
But if it were a conversion you plan to keep and enjoy for a few years, drop the Power Station idea, even if it were just for the AC (unless you will be using it elsewhere as well) and go for a conventional setup which will pretty well be fit and forget and more enjoyable in the longer term.
You said the Victron kit will be too expensive? Try comparing the part costs for a regular installation, even with Victron kit, against an Power Station setup of similar power.


PS. There may be some comments on the line of suggesting using myself for the setup? Just to preempt that ... I am taking a break from any kind of significant installations for quite a while so that would not be an option should it be suggested.

The Portable Power Station method is getting popular as the prices drop. But the cost of Lithium Batteries is also dropping of course. Reckon on paying at least twice per Ah/kWh on the Power Station option.
You mention a 460Ah Fogstar battery? Have a look how much that same 460Ah of capacity would cost in the form of a Portable Power Station.
If you were to go that Fogstar (or any other 'naked' battery) route, adding in an inverter to give you 240V AC output would be a fairly simple step and at a much better price than buying a Power Station just to essentially get an inverter.
If you want the physical flexibility of a Portable Power Station, then that is one thing, but as an alternative to having a fitted electrics setup in a converted Campervan, IMO it would come a very poor second in both ease of use and cost-effectiveness (at least in terms of kit cost).
But to counter my own argument, at least in the ease of use part, I am someone who likes sockets to be where I want to use them and completely hate trailing leads all over the place. I cannot picture me in a van where EVERYTHING is plugged into one box and a mess of wires coming out of it like Alien. You may be different

If you were to go for a "normal" electrics setup but would not do a self-installation, the cost of the install could easily push the cost beyond that of a Power Station and that is something to consider.
Also, if this old Mk7 Transit (I have no idea how old a Mk7 would be?) is just a stepping stone or a toe in the water to see if you like it, and you are likely to start again after a year or so on a newer, bigger or better conversion, then the Power Station can be a good option to save spending money on installation costs you won't recoop.
But if it were a conversion you plan to keep and enjoy for a few years, drop the Power Station idea, even if it were just for the AC (unless you will be using it elsewhere as well) and go for a conventional setup which will pretty well be fit and forget and more enjoyable in the longer term.
You said the Victron kit will be too expensive? Try comparing the part costs for a regular installation, even with Victron kit, against an Power Station setup of similar power.


PS. There may be some comments on the line of suggesting using myself for the setup? Just to preempt that ... I am taking a break from any kind of significant installations for quite a while so that would not be an option should it be suggested.

Hey thanks for the response, when I first started looking in to this I thought exactly the same as you, with the power bank and disregarded it. My situation is that I work at sea for long periods of time and being able to bring the batteries in house away from the cold is making me think differently tho, can I ask seems as you know your stuff if I was to put the power bank under the bed out of the way could I wire up a socket to a 13amp plug and also do the same for the 12v ? Wire up the 12v fuse board to a cigarette plug max that I could get out of that is 30amp and least there wouldn’t be wires all over the place, still an expensive way to get power I agree but also conscious that the van is 11 years old with high mileage, think I could get a few years in it but have to be realistic. Could buy a 230/12 inverter to plug in?


I’ll be home soon and itching to get away so the thought of plug and play is swaying me but also aware that I might regret it in the long run.





Mike

 

[trevskoda]

For emergency or charging on the move if you want to a 200amp relay and switch , use a heavey battery cable to link up, this also works for emergency start if required should vans starter battery fail, make sure the engine is over 1500rpm or belt slip may happen with the big load.

 

[wildebus]

Hi Merl, a few comments to your post

Hiya and welcome
You have a lot of options and your best choice will depend on how you use the van and your budget as well as you're skill set and if you intend to keep it for a while. Ask 10 people what you're best to do and you'll get 10 different answers which doesn't help but most folks will be making suggestions from their own experiences of what works for them and their circumstances will very likely be different to you.
Here are my feelings:-

I wouldn't want to miss an opportunity for charging so personally I wouldn't be ruling out the alternator, you can get a 30-40A battery to battery charger for around £100 and your alt should be fine with that sort of current, I know a lot of folks use higher power B2Bs with similar alternators and I don't think failures are common.

I agree with that. Some kind of charging via alternator is absolutely worthwhile. May as well make the most of that 'free' power when driving.
I use a 60A B2B on my 2007 Ducato and as far as I can tell there are no adverse effects. I have had a setup with a 90A B2B on the van and that is probably pushing it? A B2B rather than a simple relay setup can be advantageous as it can also act as a current limiter to limit the strain on the alternator. (I personally am wary of the effect when using a relay of virtually directly linking a big lithium battery with massive ability to suck charge to an alternator,and much prefer the use of a B2B to limit).
I have "broken" one persons alternator by fitting a Leisure Battery and Relay system actually. But it must have been on the way out for that to happen. It has happened to someone else I know a few times for the same reason. one of those things ... the straw that broke the camels back.

I THINK (someone with actual personal experience will confirm no doubt) you'll need around 100AH of battery capacity per day to run a small domestic under counter fridge via an invertor so on the face of it you're cutting your power capacity close with 460AH, it wont leave you a great deal spare for running other items especially if you don't drive/use alternator or if there's little sun.

I find I use around 50Ah a day to run my 240V AC Fridge Freezer. It is an A+ (old rating) one and is fairly large, but once down to operating temp, I am not sure how much difference the size actually makes? What I HAVE noticed is how big an effect opening the freezer door makes to energy (i.e. a MASSIVE amount).

Personally I've never seen the point of an all in one power station, bang for your buck you'll be better off buying separate batteries, inverter, and charger and you'll also have the options to fit these separates where they'll fit best and utilize available space better, however if you're planning of changing your van any time soon and you don't fancy removing and reinstalling then that changes things.

I have a Power Station and I do carry it in the Motorhome, but not to actually specifically use IN it. I used it a few days ago to get AC power to work on another Motorhome for example, but using INSIDE? nah. (nah for me, anyway )

Now for a somewhat controversial thought. Rather than using say 460AH of battery and relying on some solar, why not consider not bothering with solar at all and putting the money you save on solar panels and controller towards extra battery capacity? 3 days off 1 day on is what we use because the cassette needs emptying and as you say we can take a shower, you just recharge you're sizeable battery bank when you're on site and off you go again without any issues if there's no sun.

The cost of solar panels has really dropped and if the space is on the roof ....

Finally on a more 'techy' point, using a 24V system rather than the usual 12V will give you a little benefit from a more efficient system and cables needn't be as heavy. The slight downside is you cant upgrade the system by adding just one 12v battery, you have to add 2 at a time (24v a pop).

You are getting a bit techy now and yup, that is worthwhile for someone who tends to be a big inverter user. DC devices no so much, and it does create possible complications on Solar (need higher voltages).

Good luck

 

[wildebus]

Hey thanks for the response, when I first started looking in to this I thought exactly the same as you, with the power bank and disregarded it. My situation is that I work at sea for long periods of time and being able to bring the batteries in house away from the cold is making me think differently tho, can I ask seems as you know your stuff if I was to put the power bank under the bed out of the way could I wire up a socket to a 13amp plug and also do the same for the 12v ? Wire up the 12v fuse board to a cigarette plug max that I could get out of that is 30amp and least there wouldn’t be wires all over the place, still an expensive way to get power I agree but also conscious that the van is 11 years old with high mileage, think I could get a few years in it but have to be realistic. Could buy a 230/12 inverter to plug in?


I’ll be home soon and itching to get away so the thought of plug and play is swaying me but also aware that I might regret it in the long run.





Mike

You could run a series of extension leads (DC and AC) from a central source to the places you want them. Then a Power Station just becomes a central power source.
By doing that you are getting very close to the "may as well just get a battery to put there" situation. 11 years old is not that old really (My motorhome is 15 years old and over 100,000 miles).

A Power Station would give you "instant" power and you could be away in the van with usuable power whilst you are still building it? For some people it is quite possible that IS the best option (A lady I spoke to a few years ago wanted power in her van and asked me to set it up with battery, split charge, cabling, etc, but she thought she might either get a newer van or just sell it in a year. I advised her paying me to do that would likely be a waste of her money and she would actually be best with using what was then called a "Solar Generator").


Maybe flesh out the layout as if it were the permanent one, and instead of a battery, inverter, etc, put the Power Station? then you can convert to the moreconventional way easily if that is the route you end up going and you have a Power Station as a backup?

 

[Nabsim]

Take a look on YouTube at the channel Mel’s Big Van Small World. Mel runs his entire van from a Bluetti power bank and has been doing for quite some time, he is full time as well.

The reason I said I wasn’t keen on them wasn’t a reflection on brands at all, more if you already have a van with battery’s, chargers, solar, inverters etc then I can’t see the point of using power banks instead of increasing battery.

Starting out fresh it’s an easy way to get a van powered up

 

[Littleolddusty]

Wow so many ideas, big thank you to you all for taking the time to respond, much appreciated, busy work at the moment but will come back and read again, got two weeks to make a decision and it’s just nice to get some advice from people who know what there talking about

 

[Littleolddusty]

Got another question if that’s ok, if I use a 40amp battery charger that plugs in would this work on sites with 16amp shire power? It’s a fog star battery charger that I’m thinking about

 

[merl]

Hi Merl, a few comments to your post




I agree with that. Some kind of charging via alternator is absolutely worthwhile. May as well make the most of that 'free' power when driving.
I use a 60A B2B on my 2007 Ducato and as far as I can tell there are no adverse effects. I have had a setup with a 90A B2B on the van and that is probably pushing it? A B2B rather than a simple relay setup can be advantageous as it can also act as a current limiter to limit the strain on the alternator. (I personally am wary of the effect when using a relay of virtually directly linking a big lithium battery with massive ability to suck charge to an alternator,and much prefer the use of a B2B to limit).
I have "broken" one persons alternator by fitting a Leisure Battery and Relay system actually. But it must have been on the way out for that to happen. It has happened to someone else I know a few times for the same reason. one of those things ... the straw that broke the camels back.


I find I use around 50Ah a day to run my 240V AC Fridge Freezer. It is an A+ (old rating) one and is fairly large, but once down to operating temp, I am not sure how much difference the size actually makes? What I HAVE noticed is how big an effect opening the freezer door makes to energy (i.e. a MASSIVE amount).


I have a Power Station and I do carry it in the Motorhome, but not to actually specifically use IN it. I used it a few days ago to get AC power to work on another Motorhome for example, but using INSIDE? nah. (nah for me, anyway )

The cost of solar panels has really dropped and if the space is on the roof ....


You are getting a bit techy now and yup, that is worthwhile for someone who tends to be a big inverter user. DC devices no so much, and it does create possible complications on Solar (need higher voltages).

I find I use around 50Ah a day to run my 240V AC Fridge Freezer. It is an A+ (old rating) one and is fairly large, but once down to operating temp, I am not sure how much difference the size actually makes? What I HAVE noticed is how big an effect opening the freezer door makes to energy (i.e. a MASSIVE amount).
I remember you posting a consumption chart for your fridge so when I said "Someone will confirm" TBF I meant 'David will confirm' !!
I remember doing some work for a guy who was a retired butcher and at that time had a commercial fridge and was obsessed with saving energy so he had a strict layout of his fridge items and knew exactly where all the cuts and joints were so he could open the door, grab what he wanted immediately and then get the door closed instantly. He carried that over to his kitchen fridge and much to the dismay of his wife he has a drawing sellotaped to the fridge door showing exactly where everything was to be positioned inside out so it could be found quickly and the door shut ASAP!

 

[Littleolddusty]

Hiya and welcome
You have a lot of options and your best choice will depend on how you use the van and your budget as well as you're skill set and if you intend to keep it for a while. Ask 10 people what you're best to do and you'll get 10 different answers which doesn't help but most folks will be making suggestions from their own experiences of what works for them and their circumstances will very likely be different to you.
Here are my feelings:-
I wouldn't want to miss an opportunity for charging so personally I wouldn't be ruling out the alternator, you can get a 30-40A battery to battery charger for around £100 and your alt should be fine with that sort of current, I know a lot of folks use higher power B2Bs with similar alternators and I don't think failures are common.
I THINK (someone with actual personal experience will confirm no doubt) you'll need around 100AH of battery capacity per day to run a small domestic under counter fridge via an invertor so on the face of it you're cutting your power capacity close with 460AH, it wont leave you a great deal spare for running other items especially if you don't drive/use alternator or if there's little sun.
Personally I've never seen the point of an all in one power station, bang for your buck you'll be better off buying separate batteries, inverter, and charger and you'll also have the options to fit these separates where they'll fit best and utilize available space better, however if you're planning of changing your van any time soon and you don't fancy removing and reinstalling then that changes things.
Now for a somewhat controversial thought. Rather than using say 460AH of battery and relying on some solar, why not consider not bothering with solar at all and putting the money you save on solar panels and controller towards extra battery capacity? 3 days off 1 day on is what we use because the cassette needs emptying and as you say we can take a shower, you just recharge you're sizeable battery bank when you're on site and off you go again without any issues if there's no sun.
Finally on a more 'techy' point, using a 24V system rather than the usual 12V will give you a little benefit from a more efficient system and cables needn't be as heavy. The slight downside is you cant upgrade the system by adding just one 12v battery, you have to add 2 at a time (24v a pop).
Good luck

Great idea, now thinking get the 560amp and charger for now and build it up in the summer once Iv got more cash. My fridge which I’ll probably only use in the summer is 40watts so a battery that size would have the heater running for days during this winter, are all you guys on this site hardcore and go away throughout the winter? I can’t wait to get back on the road, was at Whitby few weeks back and best time Iv ever had there ! No massive crowds and easy access to the bars

 

[Littleolddusty]

I find I use around 50Ah a day to run my 240V AC Fridge Freezer. It is an A+ (old rating) one and is fairly large, but once down to operating temp, I am not sure how much difference the size actually makes? What I HAVE noticed is how big an effect opening the freezer door makes to energy (i.e. a MASSIVE amount).
I remember you posting a consumption chart for your fridge so when I said "Someone will confirm" TBF I meant 'David will confirm' !!
I remember doing some work for a guy who was a retired butcher and at that time had a commercial fridge and was obsessed with saving energy so he had a strict layout of his fridge items and knew exactly where all the cuts and joints were so he could open the door, grab what he wanted immediately and then get the door closed instantly. He carried that over to his kitchen fridge and much to the dismay of his wife he has a drawing sellotaped to the fridge door showing exactly where everything was to be positioned inside out so it could be found quickly and the door shut ASAP!

I’ll get our lass some karate lessons so she can wip out a lettuce supper fast