Does this sign have any legal standing?

[Fisherman]

Longish post, but only because you repeated yourself a few times. Barrack room lawyers are rarely fully correct. But my point was, if they don't want us, we shouldn't stop! And lets be honest here, the reason they were asking about the legality of the sign, so they know whether it is safe to ignore this and others like it.
We have enough of a bad image, why strive to make it worse and bring in stronger measures. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should! And "stick from us"? You go for it!

But I stand by my first post.
"But the rights and wrongs of the sign shouldn't come into it! If they don't want overnighting there and it continues, up will go barriers or some other sanction. Then we won't be able to park and visit for the day!"

When I see an illegal sign stating no overnight parking, my initial reaction is anger. But I don’t park there. If they don’t want us at night after spending our money, I won’t be there during the day. No overnight parking signs are not meant for cars, they are meant solely for us. Why not put up a sign saying no motorhomes at any time, at least that would be honest.

I totally agree, if they don’t want us don’t stay, day or night, just don’t stay, and take your money elsewhere. So if they want to erect barriers, or do the right thing and apply for a TRO, then speaking personally it makes no difference to me.

 

[Fisherman]

What you seem to say is that people should just give in to NIMBYs and bullies; that people should kowtow to those who (for whatever reason) are anti-motorhome even though they have no legal right to prevent motorhomers from parking up overnight. The same issue exists for HGV trampers -- except that they have an organisation much better equipped than we do to take the miscreants to task -- which is why I wrote that authorities would probably get a lot more stick than they would from us should they make it difficult for trampers to take their legally required overnight breaks.

BTW, the reason for me repeating myself is that you dragged the discussion off topic. The OP didn't ask whether we should park there; it asked whether the sign had legal standing, and I stand by my answer: The sign does not comply with the law and so has no legal standing!

Geoff East Lothian don’t tend to start of with no overnight parking signs they go from nothing to barriers as they did in Musselburgh, Prestonpans, and many other places. But there are dozens of places were no overnight parking signs have been ignored for years with no TRO or barriers ever been fitted even within East Lothian. So to suggest that ignoring these signs always leads to enforcement is wrong. In some cases these unenforceable signs are a pre cursor to enforcement regardless of our activities.
Currently we have a situation in Dumfries and Galloway were they are considering carte Blanche banning of overnight parking throughout the region. They have no overnight parking signs with no TROs on many of their carparks, and by the look of the signs they have been there for years. Yet you will regularly see vans parked up ignoring these unenforceable signs. I have posted a letter on here from them acknowledging that their signs are unenforceable. I doubt if they will ever be given legal authority to implement TROs and barriers throughout their region, and doing so will I think prove counterproductive. Highland region and transport Scotland in 2012 removed all of these no overnight parking signs, because they were unenforceable, and they knew they could never achieve the legal threshold required for TROs

Removal of overnight parking signs

Removal of overnight parking signs - Removal of overnight parking signs.

www.highland.gov.uk

But my attitude is really quite simple, if they don’t want me there at night, then they don’t get me there during the day, I wont spend my money in places that put up these signs. Although in the case of New England Bay I will make an exception. There are no shops there, we don’t spend any money. They cannot erect barriers as they would block access to the CMC campsite, and I doubt very much if they will ever meet the requirements for a TRO.

 

[Rolyan57]

I really think ELC have lost the plot. I think they could charge a small amount to overnight in many of their car parks which would bring in extra revenue. Most car parks will be empty overnight and it’s not over nighters who leave the mess, have witnessed this myself, it’s the day trippers. Live in Berwickshire so visit EL regularly.

We need to be honest with ourselves. The statement should really be “it’s not all overnighters who leave the mess but some do; it’s not all day trippers who leave a mess but some do”.

 

[Fisherman]

We need to be honest with ourselves. The statement should really be “it’s not all overnighters who leave the mess but some do; it’s not all day trippers who leave a mess but some do”.

I think we are honest with ourselves Roylan, almost to a fault.
We you, I fully acknowledge that we have idiots amongst us, I doubt if anyone on here would deny that. But those who need to be honest with themselves are not us. It’s councillors who claim to have overwhelming support from locals, and when challenged to provide evidence of said support cannot do so. I have scoured the internet trying to find stated reports of locals up in arms at our behaviour in Dumfries and Galloway, reported on here by myself in a letter from their council. To date I have drawn a blank.
Yes I have seen poor behaviour from some, but it stands out because it’s not the norm, most of us don’t behave like that. Just like most people from other groups behave responsibly, but they to have idiots amongst them, we are not alone apart from the fact we are the only ones dealt with.

 

[QFour]

I utterly detest this council. They are probably the worse council in the U.K. towards us. and you only have to cross the Firth to find a council who have acted intelligently and pragmatically towards us, Fife council.

On a visit last year to the laybye at silver sands near Dunbar, we noted double yellow lines. Now for those who don’t know this area, there is nothing there apart from sea, sand and grass. No houses, hardly a building for about half a mile in the adjacent golf course. We parked up on the lay bye off the road. We got a knock on the door next morning from a traffic warden, telling us we were parked on double yellow lines, even though we were off the road. Only this shower would put double yellow lines in such a rural location. They have now dumped tons of soil on the lay bye to prevent parking, all the carparks in the area have barriers. The traffic warden asked us why not use the campsite, I told him it closes for half the year, but we have used it in the warmer months. Just let’s you see how ignorant they are. Two campers and a Motorhome came back to find parking tickets that day. They too were parked off the road.

People don't realise how far yellow lines cover. We had a guy park on the pavement outside our shop door. He was not doing business with us but I suspect from the car he was driving he was probably having a fitting for his gold teeth up the road. I phoned the Traffic Wardens and they kindly came down and put a ticket on it for parking on double yellow lines. They extend across the pavement to the property. A truck then turned up and lifted it up and away it went. He was not a happy bunny when he came back a couple of hours later.

 

[Fisherman]

People don't realise how far yellow lines cover. We had a guy park on the pavement outside our shop door. He was not doing business with us but I suspect from the car he was driving he was probably having a fitting for his gold teeth up the road. I phoned the Traffic Wardens and they kindly came down and put a ticket on it for parking on double yellow lines. They extend across the pavement to the property. A truck then turned up and lifted it up and away it went. He was not a happy bunny when he came back a couple of hours later.

To be honest I was ignorant of that fact also.
But that situation is different from what happened to us in Dunbar.
We were not parked on a pavement, but on a lay bye of the road.
Sadly most seem to be unaware, as the warden claimed he was handing out tickets every day to folk who were also as ignorant of the facts as myself.

 

[GeoffL]

Geoff East Lothian don’t tend to start of with no overnight parking signs they go from nothing to barriers as they did in Musselburgh, Prestonpans, and many other places. But there are dozens of places were no overnight parking signs have been ignored for years with no TRO or barriers ever been fitted even within East Lothian. So to suggest that ignoring these signs always leads to enforcement is wrong. In some cases these unenforceable signs are a pre cursor to enforcement regardless of our activities. [...]

FWIW, I tried to find the exact location of the car park from the OP. The best I could do is the area around GPS (55.9996, -2.5601). Google Street View (GSV) from July 2016 shows 6'6" height barriers on all three of the car park entrances and, judging by their state, they have been there some time. If this is the location in question and there are no barriers currently in place then the barriers shown in GSV have been removed.
That said, there is signage directing buses to another part of the 'parking complex', so it would seem impossible for them to 'barrier off' even more. However, the photo in the OP doesn't look like the images in GSV...

 

[Rolyan57]

I think we are honest with ourselves Roylan, almost to a fault.
We you, I fully acknowledge that we have idiots amongst us, I doubt if anyone on here would deny that. But those who need to be honest with themselves are not us. It’s councillors who claim to have overwhelming support from locals, and when challenged to provide evidence of said support cannot do so. I have scoured the internet trying to find stated reports of locals up in arms at our behaviour in Dumfries and Galloway, reported on here by myself in a letter from their council. To date I have drawn a blank.
Yes I have seen poor behaviour from some, but it stands out because it’s not the norm, most of us don’t behave like that. Just like most people from other groups behave responsibly, but they to have idiots amongst them, we are not alone apart from the fact we are the only ones dealt with.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I just feel that some vanners are guilty of saying “we don’t make the mess, it’s day trippers”. Which is not the true picture. But your comments are correct and still stand; we do seem to get dealt with because it’s an ‘easy’ solution.

Would a FOI request help when trying to get details of the alleged complaints against us?

 

[RSD7a]

FWIW, I tried to find the exact location of the car park from the OP. The best I could do is the area around GPS (55.9996, -2.5601). Google Street View (GSV) from July 2016 shows 6'6" height barriers on all three of the car park entrances and, judging by their state, they have been there some time. If this is the location in question and there are no barriers currently in place then the barriers shown in GSV have been removed.
That said, there is signage directing buses to another part of the 'parking complex', so it would seem impossible for them to 'barrier off' even more. However, the photo in the OP doesn't look like the images in GSV...

FWIW this is the spot, (if my inexpert copy and paste works) Limetree Walk

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

though the image is 11 years old before any parking charges were being levied. (Even now there are no height barriers). It's basically a dead end lane that ends in a narrow car park which in turn gives access to woods and beautiful Tyninghame beach.
I suspect the No Overnight Parking has as much to do with discouraging overnight campers (tents) on the beach and in the woods, which leads to mess on the beach and a serious fire risk from open fires in the woods. I've seen the odd campervan parked up overnight, but mainly cars belonging to people who want to camp out on a relatively deserted beach.

 

[GeoffL]

FWIW this is the spot, (if my inexpert copy and paste works) Limetree Walk

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

though the image is 11 years old before any parking charges were being levied. (Even now there are no height barriers). It's basically a dead end lane that ends in a narrow car park which in turn gives access to woods and beautiful Tyninghame beach.
I suspect the No Overnight Parking has as much to do with discouraging overnight campers (tents) on the beach and in the woods, which leads to mess on the beach and a serious fire risk from open fires in the woods. I've seen the odd campervan parked up overnight, but mainly cars belonging to people who want to camp out on a relatively deserted beach.

Yep. That worked -- thanks. I suspect your suspicion that the sign is to discourage beach campers is well founded. I suspect that even something as small as a T5 might not fit those parking bays!

TBH, it looks like agricultural and/or forestry vehicles require access beyond the gates and so any height barriers would need to be openable and stakeholders given keys. Possibly more trouble than it's worth. FWIW, I just did a quick search on Transport Scotland and East Lothian websites to find only this East Lothian cabinet document from July 2022 (page 2, para 3.10) which states that a schedule 2 restriction is to be imposed opposite the designated parking bays in order to prevent "inconsiderate parking and dangerous". So the double yellow lines 'have teeth', but it seems that there is no TRO to back up the sign in the OP.

 

[QFour]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I just feel that some vanners are guilty of saying “we don’t make the mess, it’s day trippers”. Which is not the true picture. But your comments are correct and still stand; we do seem to get dealt with because it’s an ‘easy’ solution.

Would a FOI request help when trying to get details of the alleged complaints against us?

We stayed with about 4 other MHs up in the Northumberland area. Brilliant spot overlooking Berwick on Tweed and the sea. Place was really nice and quiet. Bin was a bit full but apart from that not bad. In the morning the Seagulls had managed to remove most of the rubbish from the bin and sorted through it all. To all intents and purposes it looked like the MHs had just left a pile of rubbish there. The Councils in the UK put bins out to collect rubbish and then forget where they are. Bins round where we live are often full of rubbish and never emptied.

 

[Catchic]

After a short stay in Aberlour at a site we found it impossible to park up and go for a walk or a cycle. We had wanted to stay on in the area for the day. It was depressing to see the number of foreign vans travelling the coast looking for somewhere to park.
I wrote to ELC about how unwelcoming they are towards camper vans. Pointed out economic benefits and just how much some of us would spend in an area.
They said height barriers were installed due to the amount of rubbish and vandalism during covid. Did not respond to my query asking if the height barriers had resulted in an improvement of these issues. Feel reluctant to return even to a site in the area.

You could invest in a freedom of information request. Worded carefully enough you’d trap them in their own incompetence.
That could be interesting

 

[trevskoda]

People don't realise how far yellow lines cover. We had a guy park on the pavement outside our shop door. He was not doing business with us but I suspect from the car he was driving he was probably having a fitting for his gold teeth up the road. I phoned the Traffic Wardens and they kindly came down and put a ticket on it for parking on double yellow lines. They extend across the pavement to the property. A truck then turned up and lifted it up and away it went. He was not a happy bunny when he came back a couple of hours later.

Do you know that is legal to park on the pavement here inside the lines, and if a line is broken or no t bar at the end then its uninforcable, I know in mainland you cannot park on pavements but ok here and many do,esp in small streets in Belfast.

 

[1 Cup]

Over reach by councils and we still self police. Law abiding citizen's. Or just programmed units.

Monkey say ! we do. !,,

Happy St ain't Gorges day . But they won't celebrate that.

 

[Thistle]

Of course it’s enforceable should a policeman or traffic warden decide to do so, because it is a ‘no waiting’ sign with clearly defined times.

As seen in a booklet we are all supposed to abide with called the Highway Code.

It is not meant to be interpreted as, no you can’t sleep in your motor caravan, car, HGV, Armoured Car etc because we are singling out any specific individual groups and want to create uprisings on social media, sign!

So yep to me that signs 100% legit and should be obeyed.

 

[GeoffL]

Of course it’s enforceable should a policeman or traffic warden decide to do so, because it is a ‘no waiting’ sign with clearly defined times.

As seen in a booklet we are all supposed to abide with called the Highway Code.

It is not meant to be interpreted as, no you can’t sleep in your motor caravan, car, HGV, Armoured Car etc because we are singling out any specific individual groups and want to create uprisings on social media, sign!

So yep to me that signs 100% legit and should be obeyed.

Sorry, but that sign doesn't comply with the law. The law works both ways -- not only do you have to obey it, but the authorities must also; and they haven't in this case...
The legislation I cited in post #5 says:
Yellow panel signs
1.—(1) A restriction or prohibition of a description in column 2 of the sign table in Part 3 must be conveyed by a sign which complies with paragraphs 2 to 7.
2. The sign must have a yellow background and black border as shown in blank diagram 1 in Part 1.
3.—(1) The sign must include a symbol of the size, colour and type shown in column 3 of the Part 3 sign table for the description in question.

(2) In the case of item 3, the sign must have the circular symbol shown in column 3 together with—​

(a)the lorry symbol shown;​

(b)the bus symbol shown; or​

(c)both,​

and each symbol included must be of the size, colour and type provided for in column 3 of item 3.​

(3) The numeral forming part of the lorry symbol shown in the diagram may be varied to another numeral.​

4. A sign provided for in the Part 3 sign table must include the legend or legends provided for in column 4 for the description in question.
5. A legend may be varied in accordance with an entry in column 5 (if any).
6. The legend must be of a height provided for in column 6 (by reference to x-height).
7. A sign must include an arrow pointing to the left or to the right where indicating the beginning of, or a change in, a restriction or prohibition.

And the relevant entry of the sign table in Part 3 say that the sign must include a time period and may optionally be varied thus:

The legend may include either or both of—​

(a) “No waiting”; and​

(b) “except” followed by one or more of “taxis”, “ambulances”, “police vehicles”, and where more than one exception is provided for “and” or “&” must precede the final exception​

The sign in question contains an unauthorised variation and doesn't include the required arrow. It is thus unenforceable.

 

[HandsomeJohnny]

It's a dead end road the last 300m of which is a car parking area where you pay the council £2.50 per day (cash or Ring Go). There's over a mile of double yellow lines (so tasteful on a little country lane) on the lead-up road itself and these come to an end before the paying car park area begins. To Fisherman's point above, whether it's actually an off road car park or is technically still the road may be hard to determine.

I found this forum after receiving a PCN at Tyninghame that was issued at the exact same time I was buying a ticket (I've challenged the PCN and expect it to be withdrawn). I've only registered here to confirm that, according to my ticket it's classed as "off street" parking

I've been camping there years (fully responsible, LNT etc) and will DEFINITELY camp there overnight again; so I'm 100% willing to test the legality of the overnight parking ban (car, not motorhome) if the unenforceable element is confirmed and someone can clearly explain it in a way that fits my ADHD brain?

Edit: I actually parked there overnight the night before the PCN was issued and the fine was for not displaying a ticket after 8am - there was no fine for overnight parking and no mention on my ticket. My Mrs seems to think there's a camera on the parking meter but I didn't notice and Google street view is 12 years past best. Can anyone else confirm if that's true and what the camera might be used for? Cheers!

 

[HandsomeJohnny]

I found this forum after receiving a PCN at Tyninghame that was issued at the exact same time I was buying a ticket (I've challenged the PCN and expect it to be withdrawn). I've only registered here to confirm that, according to my ticket it's classed as "off street" parking

I've been camping there years (fully responsible, LNT etc) and will DEFINITELY camp there overnight again; so I'm 100% willing to test the legality of the overnight parking ban (car, not motorhome) if the unenforceable element is confirmed and someone can clearly explain it in a way that fits my ADHD brain?

Edit: I actually parked there overnight the night before the PCN was issued and the fine was for not displaying a ticket after 8am - there was no fine for overnight parking and no mention on my ticket. My Mrs seems to think there's a camera on the parking meter but I didn't notice and Google street view is 12 years past best. Can anyone else confirm if that's true and what the camera might be used for? Cheers!

Update: PCN was cancelled after I presented my ticket