RSD7a
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£2.50 exactly showing on my bank acct from this morning. Same as the cash payment. Maybe it varies from authority to authority depending on whatever deal has been struck?
Does this sign have any legal standing?
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fiona68
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I really think ELC have lost the plot. I think they could charge a small amount to overnight in many of their car parks which would bring in extra revenue. Most car parks will be empty overnight and it’s not over nighters who leave the mess, have witnessed this myself, it’s the day trippers. Live in Berwickshire so visit EL regularly.
campervanannie
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This was on the car parks in Devon so it could be as you say varies from county to county.
marchie
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That's ok because Hitler topped himself after losing the War ...The parking attendants are not council workers but a private company that take things very seriously. Give them a uniform they think they’re Hitler types
Steve
Neelie Mc
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After a short stay in Aberlour at a site we found it impossible to park up and go for a walk or a cycle. We had wanted to stay on in the area for the day. It was depressing to see the number of foreign vans travelling the coast looking for somewhere to park.
I wrote to ELC about how unwelcoming they are towards camper vans. Pointed out economic benefits and just how much some of us would spend in an area.
They said height barriers were installed due to the amount of rubbish and vandalism during covid. Did not respond to my query asking if the height barriers had resulted in an improvement of these issues. Feel reluctant to return even to a site in the area.
I wrote to ELC about how unwelcoming they are towards camper vans. Pointed out economic benefits and just how much some of us would spend in an area.
They said height barriers were installed due to the amount of rubbish and vandalism during covid. Did not respond to my query asking if the height barriers had resulted in an improvement of these issues. Feel reluctant to return even to a site in the area.
alcam
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Ask them again and again and again.
All these councils , companies etc just hope you'll give up and go away
GeoffL
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Also remember that it's not necessarily the county council who control parking at any specific location. For example, while Cornwall County Council are one of the most anti-motorhome entities, we nonetheless have de-facto "aires" in Cornwall -- such as the Willow car park in Mevagissey and multiple car parks in Tintagel. However, those "aires" come courtesy of town/parish councils and/or other land owners.
Fisherman
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Wasting your time with these idiots. So all of the vandalism and rubbish, during covid can be laid at our door, I don’t think so. This shower erected dozens of barriers pre covid, and were anti Motorhome then. Their Herculean efforts including moving tons of earth into the lay bye outside silver sands near Dunbar was done after covid. Every day they still send out wardens to this rural area handing out parking tickets to vans parked in a wilderness doing no harm. Ask them who they banned in Musselburgh when the toilets were being vandalised, drunken louts shouting abuse on the beech, rubbish left everywhere, dog crap , water taps left running, they banned us. And after they banned us the toilets had to be closed, the taps are still running, the drunks can still party on the beech, and the dog walkers still leave their dogs mess where it was dropped. Job done, what a shower of idiots ELC are.
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Debroos
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That's about it though for"Aires" in Cornwall isn't it. Can't think if any others off hand...
GeoffL
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Not too far from the forgotten corner, Thankes Park top car park in Torpoint 'tolerates' motorhomers and van lifers. There's also a couple of places along Earl's Drive and also the "Triangle" at Whitsand Bay. I've also tried prompting my local CAMpRA rep to mention Wacker Quay -- I know there's a height barrier stopping people getting to the waterside, but the top layby has recently 'grown' some fencing to put off fly tippers and I suggested he might like to point out that "unofficial security" in the form of motorhomers stopping overnight could well help as a deterrent to fly tipping...
That's just what's around where I live, no doubt there's similar in other Cornish corners...
Debroos
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The triangle is getting problematical as it fills up with motorhomes and leaves little to no parking for the elderly millbrookians who like to go up there and look at the sea, unfortunately.
I'm still cross about the no overnighting sign at Rame Head
(I seem to be using that emoji a lot lately!)
jagmanx
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So "Cool Hand. WULLY ?" ?I would like too decorate my back garden fence with these signs.
GeoffL
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ISTM that the Triangle only became an issue after the county and Edgecumbe estate banned campers and commercials from Rame Head. Previously, people were preferentially parking up at Rame. We used to go there for stargazing (but in a little panel van rather than the moho) until lockdown/the ban and would often see half a dozen T5-sized vans there. We didn't encounter any unfriendly van dwellers and gave several their first look at the Moon, Jupiter and Saturn through a 'scope!The triangle is getting problematical as it fills up with motorhomes and leaves little to no parking for the elderly millbrookians who like to go up there and look at the sea, unfortunately.
I'm still cross about the no overnighting sign at Rame Head
FWIW, we're just back from spending the weekend at a small campsite near Newquay that's run by a couple of van-lifers who told us about the issues being faced there thanks to Cornwall Council and the wealthy investors who've snapped up what used to be surf shacks and cheap accommodation for NMW tourism workers to be turned into high-price studio holiday lets and second homes. Those workers had little option but van life or the dole once their seasonal accommodation had been 'repurposed' only to then get hit by the council bans... and then tourist attractions wonder why it's so hard to get seasonal workers! Thankfully, the couple who run the campsite we stopped at can park up on the campsite as a perk of the job -- so many aren't that lucky...
bmb995
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I'm sure they should have the proper road traffic orders to make them legal
GeoffL
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For a traffic sign to be enforceable, it must comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions legislation (TSRGD) (see my post #5). In the case of a "no waiting for a time that is not continuous throughout the year" sign on a yellow background, it must bear a time period and may include either or both of— (a) “No waiting”; and (b) “except” followed by one or more of “taxis”, “ambulances”, “police vehicles”, and where more than one exception is provided for “and” or “&” must precede the final exception.
The text "No Overnight Parking" is not a permitted variation and so, no matter whether or not there is a TRO, the whole scheme is unenforceable simply because the sign does not comply with TSRGD. That said, thanks to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, if either the land owner or a police officer considers that damage and/or distress is or has been caused, you can be ordered to leave with seizure of your pride and joy being the ultimate sanction.
GeoffL
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... but that's not what the OP asked. The question is whether the sign has any legal status. While it might convey some NIMBY desires, it does so in a manner that isn't legally enforceable. This isn't the first time I've heard of authorities doing this deliberately where they know they haven't got proper cause to ban overnighting (e.g. in a layby) and would be acting unlawfully if they actually erected signage that implied overnighting was illegal. So they deliberately put up signs that have no legal standing but that they hope will have the effect they desire. I wonder whether this is a car park often used by tramper HGVs, and hence one where the council would probably get a lot more stick than just from us if they put up height barriers...
Fisherman
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We were at the rest and be thankful carpark years ago.
There was a handwritten sign on a wooden pole saying no overnight parking.
It turned out that a car driver, who could not get his car parked erected it.
I totally agree with your post Geoff, thanks for all your posts on this thread.
Rumour
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Longish post, but only because you repeated yourself a few times. Barrack room lawyers are rarely fully correct. But my point was, if they don't want us, we shouldn't stop! And lets be honest here, the reason they were asking about the legality of the sign, so they know whether it is safe to ignore this and others like it.
We have enough of a bad image, why strive to make it worse and bring in stronger measures. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should! And "stick from us"? You go for it!
But I stand by my first post.
"But the rights and wrongs of the sign shouldn't come into it! If they don't want overnighting there and it continues, up will go barriers or some other sanction. Then we won't be able to park and visit for the day!"
GeoffL
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What you seem to say is that people should just give in to NIMBYs and bullies; that people should kowtow to those who (for whatever reason) are anti-motorhome even though they have no legal right to prevent motorhomers from parking up overnight. The same issue exists for HGV trampers -- except that they have an organisation much better equipped than we do to take the miscreants to task -- which is why I wrote that authorities would probably get a lot more stick than they would from us should they make it difficult for trampers to take their legally required overnight breaks.
BTW, the reason for me repeating myself is that you dragged the discussion off topic. The OP didn't ask whether we should park there; it asked whether the sign had legal standing, and I stand by my answer: The sign does not comply with the law and so has no legal standing!