Cheap Lithium Batteries

[merl]

For the DIYers, adventurous and the thrifty, Fogstar have various cells at really competitive prices.
305Ah £70
280Ah £65
A set of 4 to make a 12V Battery comes complete with copper connection bars.
Add a 200A BMS at £100 and you've got a 305Ah battery for less than £400.
They say they are grade b ?? But they state their AH rate and say they supply them matched and give 3500 cycles with a 80% discharge, way more than the average camper will manage in a lifetime.

Envision LiFePO4 305Ah Prismatic Cell (Grade B)

305Ah LiFePO4 cells are ideal for compiling 12v off-grid batteries for solar, campervans and boats. LiFePO4 are generally renowned for being the very best DIY battery for energy storage. UK Stockist. Fast Delivery.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Envision LiFePO4 280Ah Prismatic Cell (Grade B)

Our 280Ah Envision AESC Prismatic cells are Grade B Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries. These cells are ideal for building off-grid solar systems, campervan power supplies, and boat electrical systems.

www.fogstar.co.uk

 

[Robmac]

I also like the look of the ECO 305 Ah battery they are bringing out soon for £499 for those (like myself) not having the confidence to build one themselves.

Times are definitely a changing regarding Lithium.

 

[merl]

I also like the look of the ECO 305 Ah battery they are bringing out soon for £499 for those (like myself) not having the confidence to build one themselves.

Times are definitely a changing regarding Lithium.

There seemed to be a bit of a price war 9 months to a year ago, then things relaxed for a while but lately prices are continually dropping, first with the 'no names' and then the bigger players having to follow suit in order for them to hang onto their share of the market. Don't know where it will stop? Wouldn't be surprised to see £1/ Ah in a couple of years time.
It's said that the Chinese are borrowing money, over producing and flooding the market, supposedly to corner the world market before hiking prices because they can because they're the sole source. I've no idea if that's fact or a myth or what the little guy be should do but I've gone for it and I'm seriously looking into solar and a lithium power wall IN our next house, one currently works out at about 3 years payback but if battery prices fall then so will the in payback time.
The problem with solar and wind farms is the unpredictably of power, a humongous battery store to serve the country wouldn't be practical but if every house had it's own large battery then storage would be far easier, it's probably what we'll see in the future.

 

[Robmac]

There seemed to be a bit of a price war 9 months to a year ago, then things relaxed for a while but lately prices are continually dropping, first with the 'no names' and then the bigger players having to follow suit in order for them to hang onto their share of the market. Don't know where it will stop? Wouldn't be surprised to see £1/ Ah in a couple of years time.
It's said that the Chinese are borrowing money, over producing and flooding the market, supposedly to corner the world market before hiking prices because they can because they're the sole source. I've no idea if that's fact or a myth or what the little guy be should do but I've gone for it and I'm seriously looking into solar and a lithium power wall IN our next house, one currently works out at about 3 years payback but if battery prices fall then so will the in payback time.
The problem with solar and wind farms is the unpredictably of power, a humongous battery store to serve the country wouldn't be practical but if every house had it's own large battery then storage would be far easier, it's probably what we'll see in the future.

I would dearly love to run a house off grid Merl. Not practical where we are now and I've left it a bit too late in life really, but if I had my time again...

I look with envy at some of the large, wide beam barges that people buy to full time on. Some are totally electric including propulsion and a 70 ft x 12 ft barge has a hell of a lot of space for solar panels. The downside is of course mooring fees and license fees, wild camping isn't a problem though.

Here is quite a beautiful example which carries a hefty price tag (around £350k), but less opulent but still very luxurious wide beams are available between £100-200k.

 

[barryd]

I also like the look of the ECO 305 Ah battery they are bringing out soon for £499 for those (like myself) not having the confidence to build one themselves.

Times are definitely a changing regarding Lithium.

That sounds good Rob but it's all the other stuff that you need to replace or upgrade thats still confusing me.

 

[merl]

That sounds good Rob but it's all the other stuff that you need to replace or upgrade thats still confusing me.

You're inbuilt charger (Sargent?,) and solar charger may have a lithium setting or may be adjustable in the settings to suit lithium,. If so all you really need to add is a B2B.

 

[wildebus]

There seemed to be a bit of a price war 9 months to a year ago, then things relaxed for a while but lately prices are continually dropping, first with the 'no names' and then the bigger players having to follow suit in order for them to hang onto their share of the market. Don't know where it will stop? Wouldn't be surprised to see £1/ Ah in a couple of years time.
It's said that the Chinese are borrowing money, over producing and flooding the market, supposedly to corner the world market before hiking prices because they can because they're the sole source. I've no idea if that's fact or a myth or what the little guy be should do but I've gone for it and I'm seriously looking into solar and a lithium power wall IN our next house, one currently works out at about 3 years payback but if battery prices fall then so will the in payback time.
The problem with solar and wind farms is the unpredictably of power, a humongous battery store to serve the country wouldn't be practical but if every house had it's own large battery then storage would be far easier, it's probably what we'll see in the future.

I might have to run an extension cable and see if I can tap into what is apparently going to be a 20,000 MWh battery bank a mile or so down the road from me!
Curious to know how large an building that will be to house the batteries? Presentation in the village hall in next couple of weeks ....

 

[Robmac]

That sounds good Rob but it's all the other stuff that you need to replace or upgrade thats still confusing me.

It's something I would never attempt on my own Barry.

Chris (formerly Edina of this forum), and Jim (Helmit) helped me a great deal wiring my van up and without them I would have a right mash of wrong cable sizes and a death trap of a van really. I do have a little knowledge but that's a dangerous thing! When I do get the Lithium I will ask on here what associated Victron gear I need to go with it.

My old system (100W flexi panel and Ring MPPT) will be used on my next boat.

 

[wildebus]

You're inbuilt charger (Sargent?,) and solar charger may have a lithium setting or may be adjustable in the settings to suit lithium,. If so all you really need to add is a B2B.

Unlikely on all counts.
A 2015 Sargent unit may be setable to Gel or AGM as well as plain wet lead, but that is as advanced as they got.
The wiring is ok for the limits of the charger but add lithium and ignoring charge profiles you will overstress the charger, it will fail after a time and you will need a whole new unit - so replacing the charger, AND the 240V CU AND the 12V distribution system.
Not cheap and even before it fails you will only be charging at something like 10-15A. Sargent have a recommended maximum battery bank of about 160Ah of Lead Acid for a reason.

 

[merl]

I might have to run an extension cable and see if I can tap into what is apparently going to be a 20,000 MWh battery bank a mile or so down the road from me!
Curious to know how large an building that will be to house the batteries? Presentation in the village hall in next couple of weeks ....

Can't you get to become great mates with the installers David? 20,000 megawatts is a lot of batteries floating around

 

[barryd]

Yet this company claims on most vans they are pretty much drop in. Their batteries are not cheap mind.

It's confusing as there are so many conflicting opinions.

Lithium leisure battery drop in replacement

Replacing a lead battery with a lithium battery. We examine the differences in detail.

www.ksenergy.co.uk

 

[barryd]

Unlikely on all counts.
A 2015 Sargent unit may be setable to Gel or AGM as well as plain wet lead, but that is as advanced as they got.
The wiring is ok for the limits of the charger but add lithium and ignoring charge profiles you will overstress the charger, it will fail after a time and you will need a whole new unit - so replacing the charger, AND the 240V CU AND the 12V distribution system.
Not cheap and even before it fails you will only be charging at something like 10-15A. Sargent have a recommended maximum battery bank of about 160Ah of Lead Acid for a reason.

So are you suggesting if you want to go lithium you have to completely remove the entire Sargent system, all that gubbins under the wardrobe, presumably all the wiring and presumably the control panel above the door and possibly make changes to the alternator?

 

[merl]

So are you suggesting if you want to go lithium you have to completely remove the entire Sargent system, all that gubbins under the wardrobe, presumably all the wiring and presumably the control panel above the door and possibly make changes to the alternator?

I don't think so.
Alternator ok.
From what David said the inbuilt charger doesn't have a lithium setting but you could simply add a New mains charger connected directly to the lithiums with the inbuilt charger disabled.
Solar controller? Still depends on what's in your van?
B2B Still needed yes.

 

[wildebus]

So are you suggesting if you want to go lithium you have to completely remove the entire Sargent system, all that gubbins under the wardrobe, presumably all the wiring and presumably the control panel above the door and possibly make changes to the alternator?

nope. I am suggesting that the Sargent system is not up to the job of charging Lithium Batteries - and if you tried you run the risk of cooking it, potentially damaging other components in the same box and landing yourself with a fairly large bill for replacement of that entire box.

What I would suggest to someone with that setup - and what I did to my own with a Sargent setup - is to bypass the charging features with external components such as a B2B and a standalone Mains Charger.
There are a few ways to disable the built-in split-charge, including one recommended by Sargent themselves in the event someone fits a B2B and to disable the built-in mains charger you just turn the big red (or blue) switch off.

If you take the Sargent Charging side out the picture, the rest of the system is, IMO, a neat setup with a decent 240V Consumer Unit, a comprensive 12V Distribution setup with Remote control, tank monitoring and other handy things. It is only the Charging that lets it down - and running the charger for extended durations does make it heat up significantly.

 

[Canalsman]

nope. I am suggesting that the Sargent system is not up to the job of charging Lithium Batteries - and if you tried you run the risk of cooking it, potentially damaging other components in the same box and landing yourself with a fairly large bill for replacement of that entire box.

What I would suggest to someone with that setup - and what I did to my own with a Sargent setup - is to bypass the charging features with external components such as a B2B and a standalone Mains Charger.
There are a few ways to disable the built-in split-charge, including one recommended by Sargent themselves in the event someone fits a B2B and to disable the built-in mains charger you just turn the big red (or blue) switch off.

If you take the Sargent Charging side out the picture, the rest of the system is, IMO, a neat setup with a decent 240V Consumer Unit, a comprensive 12V Distribution setup with Remote control, tank monitoring and other handy things. It is only the Charging that lets it down - and running the charger for extended durations does make it heat up significantly.

David implemented this setup for me in my Autotrail Dakota and it works perfectly.

 

[barryd]

nope. I am suggesting that the Sargent system is not up to the job of charging Lithium Batteries - and if you tried you run the risk of cooking it, potentially damaging other components in the same box and landing yourself with a fairly large bill for replacement of that entire box.

What I would suggest to someone with that setup - and what I did to my own with a Sargent setup - is to bypass the charging features with external components such as a B2B and a standalone Mains Charger.
There are a few ways to disable the built-in split-charge, including one recommended by Sargent themselves in the event someone fits a B2B and to disable the built-in mains charger you just turn the big red (or blue) switch off.

If you take the Sargent Charging side out the picture, the rest of the system is, IMO, a neat setup with a decent 240V Consumer Unit, a comprensive 12V Distribution setup with Remote control, tank monitoring and other handy things. It is only the Charging that lets it down - and running the charger for extended durations does make it heat up significantly.

I see. Just a bit of butchering then. I'm going to start a new thread about my solar once I've been off grid a week and confirmed my observations. I don't think I need much more than I have. Jury is out.

 

[merl]

I see. Just a bit of butchering then. I'm going to start a new thread about my solar once I've been off grid a week and confirmed my observations. I don't think I need much more than I have. Jury is out.

Another Bazza thread! You going for total WC nomination?
What solar controller do you have right now?

 

[barryd]

Another Bazza thread! You going for total WC nomination?
What solar controller do you have right now?

A shite one by the looks of it. both those green lights are flashing by the way. I just caught them off on the pic.

 

[wildebus]

A shite one by the looks of it. both those green lights are flashing by the way. I just caught them off on the pic.

View attachment 133277

As PWM Solar Controllers go, that is in principle quite a nice one.

However (always a 'however' ), if you go by their own installation guidelines, it is essentially unsuitable for a Motorhome with a common -ve between the starter and the leisure battery - which is what you will have as if you didn't the Sargent unit would not work

 

[merl]

Hmmm, yeh better add a new solar controller to that list too
Noah'll be along in a moment asking if he can have his old controller back