Cal Mac to increase prices for motorhomes by 50-70%

[barryd]

First Barry no. The purpose of RTE was manifold. Yes it was partially to help locals travel cheaper to the mainland, and also to encourage more to live on the islands. And for most islanders the cheaper fares are what they see as the main benefit for themselves. But those who run businesses on the islands and offer much needed employment see things much differently. From their perspective and the Scottish governments perspective helping local businesses by attracting more visitors helps greatly the local economy. This in turn helps to re populate much under populated islands. This in turn further improves both the sustainability and the long term viability of our islands that are a burden on the Scottish economy. Some locals fail to grasp fully the full implications of increasing the costs of travelling to their island.
On your travel cost to Arran, currently a six metre van with driver and passenger is £49.50 return, without RTE it would be about £180-190, a massive price increase, that would do much damage to their economy. Also it’s well healed people that for obvious reasons that they want to attract. They will spend more, and in some cases will even move to the islands to live.
Also as you rightly state a small increase in price won’t put people off travelling, so then what is the point in doing so Barry. But your suggestion to remove the RTE completely would massively increase prices, this would restrict travel, and would greatly damage their local economies.

I just did a test ferry booking for Arran for our van for March (Which is as far in advance as it would let me) and it came out at £66.10 for a seven metre van. I am not sure how you are arriving at the £180-£190 figure because even with a 70% hike our £66.10 booking would go up to just £112.37 although as I said earlier I am sure we used to pay about ten years ago about £160 return so somethings not right. Either the hike figure is incorrect or its going up like 170-200%. Interesting though that the Cal Mac site still appears to be offering the RET tariff in March next year.

If its just going to be motorhomes then it does seem unfair although I would argue that in the current climate if it was applied to all tourist vehicles these islands would still be busy. Its supply and demand and right now there is clearly a demand whatever the price.

 

[Harryw]

Just ran a quick sanity check through going to the Isle of Wight down south mid week in Jan for a week;
2 people 6m van cheapest around £150, same but for a 8m van around £200…

 

[barryd]

Just ran a quick sanity check through going to the Isle of Wight down south mid week in Jan for a week;
2 people 6m van cheapest around £150, same but for a 8m van around £200…

I think I read somewhere that its the most expensive (per mile) ferry route in the world (perhaps short river crossings maybe work out more I dont know) but I bet it was stacked this summer gone. I went at Christmas once in the van and it was even busy then. I wouldnt rush back to be honest.

 

[Fisherman]

I just did a test ferry booking for Arran for our van for March (Which is as far in advance as it would let me) and it came out at £66.10 for a seven metre van. I am not sure how you are arriving at the £180-£190 figure because even with a 70% hike our £66.10 booking would go up to just £112.37 although as I said earlier I am sure we used to pay about ten years ago about £160 return so somethings not right. Either the hike figure is incorrect or its going up like 170-200%. Interesting though that the Cal Mac site still appears to be offering the RET tariff in March next year.

If its just going to be motorhomes then it does seem unfair although I would argue that in the current climate if it was applied to all tourist vehicles these islands would still be busy. Its supply and demand and right now there is clearly a demand whatever the price.

Barry I paid £136 in 2004 for a car to Arran. Allowing for inflation I don't think I am far of the mark.
Also Barry if you read the article commercial vehicles are not covered by RTE, and they are paying three times what a motorhome would have to pay.
You suggested completely removing the RTE, putting us in the same place as commercial users.
"Perhaps the fairest thing to do would be to give islanders the REF cheap tariff and everyone else no matter what you are driving the original none funded tariff."
What's being proposed is way below that, insufficient to lower numbers, but an increase in fares none the less.
Luckily for me my current van is below 6M and I am not affected.
But a 60% rise would add only £29, I don't think that will deter many, so what's the point.
It seems to me that commercial vehicles should be covered by RTE, thus removing the apparent anomaly.

 

[Fisherman]

Just ran a quick sanity check through going to the Isle of Wight down south mid week in Jan for a week;
2 people 6m van cheapest around £150, same but for a 8m van around £200…

Yes Harry my son took his car over there. It seems ridicules that the UK government is not doing more to support the Island. But that may be because the Isle of Wight does not suffer from the same problems that most of our many Islands do, with under population. Look at Jura its current population is 197, and the costs involved in keeping these islands as they are is massive. Something that I and most up here are fully supportive off. Our Island cultures are important to us.

 

[barryd]

Barry I paid £136 in 2004 for a car to Arran. Allowing for inflation I don't think I am far of the mark.
Also Barry if you read the article commercial vehicles are not covered by RTE, and they are paying three times what a motorhome would have to pay.
You suggested completely removing the RTE, putting us in the same place as commercial users.
"Perhaps the fairest thing to do would be to give islanders the REF cheap tariff and everyone else no matter what you are driving the original none funded tariff."
What's being proposed is way below that, insufficient to lower numbers, but an increase in fares none the less.
Luckily for me my current van is below 6M and I am not affected.
But a 60% rise would add only £29, I don't think that will deter many, so what's the point.
It seems to me that commercial vehicles should be covered by RTE, thus removing the apparent anomaly.

The article is misleading then or I Cant get my hungover brain around it all. If commercial vehicles are paying three times what a motorhome is paying then the proposed 50-70% hike for motorhomes is nowhere near three times what we pay now. So is it just a motorhome tax or the removal of RET just for motorhomes. It cant be the latter as the price hikes will not bring us close to what a commercial vehicle driver has to pay.

So unless I have this wrong in one breath you are saying we would be charged £190 and then in another you are saying its only going up £29. Im completely lost. Which is it?

 

[Fisherman]

The article is misleading then or I Cant get my hungover brain around it all. If commercial vehicles are paying three times what a motorhome is paying then the proposed 50-70% hike for motorhomes is nowhere near three times what we pay now. So is it just a motorhome tax or the removal of RET just for motorhomes. It cant be the latter as the price hikes will not bring us close to what a commercial vehicle driver has to pay.

So unless I have this wrong in one breath you are saying we would be charged £190 and then in another you are saying its only going up £29. Im completely lost. Which is it?

With current proposals Barry we would pay an additional £29 on a 60% increase (The mean figure offered).
If RTE was completely removed as you suggested, you would pay three times more for your van an increase of between £100-120.
Barry what I am attempting to point out is one is ineffective, whilst the other would be so punitive to travellers as to seriously damage their economy.
To take one example, many who travel to the island with their cars go to Auchrannie.
Auchrannie is by far the largest employer on the Island.
If they put fares up by such a large amount their numbers would suffer, and islanders would lose their jobs.
Also Arran has six golf courses. Golfers travel to the Island to play the courses, and this revenue would also suffer.
All of these courses are struggling right now. You used to be able to get a ticket to play all six courses for £149.
Bye the way Machrie has what I believe to be the only 12 hole course on the planet.
Removing RTE completely from travellers Barry would set the Islands back.
Whilst charging us an extra £29 to travel to Arran will have little or no affect.

 

[barryd]

With current proposals Barry we would pay an additional £29 on a 60% increase (The mean figure offered).
If RTE was completely removed you would pay three times more for your van an increase of between £100-120.
Barry what I am attempting to point out is one is ineffective, whilst the other would be so punitive to travellers as to seriously damage their economy.
To take one example, many who travel to the island with their cars go to Auchrannie.
Auchrannie is by far the largest employer on the Island.
If they put fares up by such a large amount their numbers would suffer, and islanders would lose their jobs.
Also Arran has six golf courses. Golfers travel to the Island to play the courses, and this revenue would also suffer.
All of these courses are struggling right now. You used to be able to get a ticket to play all six courses for £149.
Bye the way Machrie has what I believe to be the only 12 hole course on the planet.
Removing RTE completely from travellers Barry would set the Islands back.
Whilst charging us an extra £29 to travel to Arran will have little or no affect.

Ok cheers. I must have misunderstood as I thought they were removing the RET completely but it just seems its just a price hike for motorhomes then.

Im not convinced however the RET has made such a massive impact on tourism. Its definitely been positive but like all the islands they only have so much accommodation which includes campsites and when they are full they are full. I think the main difference has been in the the number of vehicles which has increased. The actual number of people visiting according to this has only increased by 16% since before the RET.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/33631/ts-amfc-ret-arran-final-report.pdf

Having been visiting the island for 30 years at all times of the year I cant say Ive seen that much difference in the visitor numbers. I suspect you are right though, short stay visitors have probably increased. Golfers for the weekend or even the day and more people taking cars rather than coming on foot will see businesses benefit on the more remote sides of the island but I dont think it would make much difference to places like the Auchrannie. I only ever stayed there once and it certainly wasnt cheap. Well north of the none RET ferry fare per night and the food and drink were really expensive. If you can afford to stay and eat in there I dont reckon you will be bothered too much about the ferry fare.

On reflection I think its wrong to penalise just us motorhomers but I would not be averse to a rise in fares for all. I think my initial concern as it has been for all the islands is the very thin line we tread in terms of the relaxed attitude the islands have had in the past towards us wild camping on them and as we have seen some islands are now restricting this. Too many motorhomes causes problems and then we all end up losing out.

 

[Fisherman]

Ok cheers. I must have misunderstood as I thought they were removing the RET completely but it just seems its just a price hike for motorhomes then.

Im not convinced however the RET has made such a massive impact on tourism. Its definitely been positive but like all the islands they only have so much accommodation which includes campsites and when they are full they are full. I think the main difference has been in the the number of vehicles which has increased. The actual number of people visiting according to this has only increased by 16% since before the RET.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/33631/ts-amfc-ret-arran-final-report.pdf

Having been visiting the island for 30 years at all times of the year I cant say Ive seen that much difference in the visitor numbers. I suspect you are right though, short stay visitors have probably increased. Golfers for the weekend or even the day and more people taking cars rather than coming on foot will see businesses benefit on the more remote sides of the island but I dont think it would make much difference to places like the Auchrannie. I only ever stayed there once and it certainly wasnt cheap. Well north of the none RET ferry fare per night and the food and drink were really expensive. If you can afford to stay and eat in there I dont reckon you will be bothered too much about the ferry fare.

On reflection I think its wrong to penalise just us motorhomers but I would not be averse to a rise in fares for all. I think my initial concern as it has been for all the islands is the very thin line we tread in terms of the relaxed attitude the islands have had in the past towards us wild camping on them and as we have seen some islands are now restricting this. Too many motorhomes causes problems and then we all end up losing out.

Barry possibly Arran is a poor example but even Arran has suffered from de population. Arran’s current population currently sits at roughly 4600, but in the 19th century it was near 7,000. But the outer Hebrides have suffered massive de population there figures being less than a quarter to what they were in the late 19th century. On my first visit to Arran in 1973, you could have walked the 3 miles from Brodick to Lamlash and saw possibly 6-8 cars. Now that route is so unsafe to walk that with help from the EU they constructed a path between the two villages. Arran has changed greatly from these times. The large coop was not there, Auchrannie, Arran Aromatics, Arran Brewery, and both of its two whisky distilleries did not even exist. The holy isle was uninhabited, and the population was under 3,000.
With the advent of the internet, people can operate from anywhere, and some have taken advantage of this technology to move to the islands. But none of our islands are financially viable, not even Bute which is probably the most self sufficient of them all. When you look at the cost of building ferries ( the cost of the two now being built has exceeded £100 million), running them, building the infrastructure in the ports that supports them, manning them etc, you can see that trying to take care of just 90,000 people who inhabit our islands is costly.
If you are unwell on Jura you are flown by helicopter to Glasgow for treatment, can you imagine the cost in doing this. Taking care of our islands involves two things. First us on the mainland putting our hands into our pockets, second trying to achieve islands that are more financially independent than they currently are. And putting up fares for travellers of any kind, is not what is required. I know two Motorhome owners who first ventured over to Arran ten years ago. Well they now live happily with their two kids on the island. They are now making Arran more viable, and all from a journey from London to Arran on a Motorhome. Now that’s what Arran and the rest of the islands need, not narrow minded selfish people who’s only goal is to feather their own nests, whilst venting their annoyance at anything, or anyone who upsets their slumber. Arran and the islands needs more young innovative people to work and live there, not an increase in fares for motorhomes and motorhomes only.

 

[MikeBBB]

Out of interest, does anyone know the position regarding m/homes and commercial vehicles on the Norwegian ferry routes in Norway? Give the Scottish RET scheme was modelled to a great extent on the Norwegian model, it would be an interesting comparison.

RET transformed the islands, and as with all things, that had positives and negatives. Rather like NC500. And the Skye Bridge. And ferries on the Sabbath! Need I go on?

That CalMac sees fit to attempt to appease one group of users by penalizing another is unfortunate. The solution lies in greater ferry capacity and considerably improved facilities for motorized visitors to the islands. Then there's the little matter of whether CalMac actually runs an efficient service and all that debate entails.

 

[mistericeman]

RET

ROAD EQUIVALENT TARIFFS were introduced to the CalMac network between 2012 and 2015. The previous fares were inconsistent and generally very high, particularly on shorter routes like ours. RET in p…

mullandionaferrycommittee.org

 

[Fisherman]

RET

ROAD EQUIVALENT TARIFFS were introduced to the CalMac network between 2012 and 2015. The previous fares were inconsistent and generally very high, particularly on shorter routes like ours. RET in p…

mullandionaferrycommittee.org

Thank you for that lots of interesting info there.
From the figures on here it would cost about £190 plus passengers for a 6m van to Arran roughly £222 and £250 plus passengers for an 8m van roughly £282 far higher than I estimated if RTE was removed. The Arran ferries are about 15% more expensive than the mull ferry figures shown on the link.

 

[mistericeman]

Not sure this is of any interest

https://www.starconference.org.uk/star/2008/Paul_McCartney.pdf

 

[colinm]

Reading the 'Transport Scotland' reports on the effects of RET is quite interesting.
Generally.
Residents have reported some problems with summer bookings, but this seems to be the general increase in traffic, no mention of motorhomes.
The 'season' has been extended, giving income over a longer period.
Many businesses have reported increases in spending by tourists, but those competing with the mainland have seen a reduction in spending by residents!

 

[Fisherman]

Reading the 'Transport Scotland' reports on the effects of RET is quite interesting.
Generally.
Residents have reported some problems with summer bookings, but this seems to be the general increase in traffic, no mention of motorhomes.
The 'season' has been extended, giving income over a longer period.
Many businesses have reported increases in spending by tourists, but those competing with the mainland have seen a reduction in spending by residents!

Motorhomes are not the problem, there are not enough to make much difference. If they banned us these issues would still remain. The issues don’t revolve around lots of motorhomes filling ferries, but the attitudes of a minority who hold sway. CalMac have yet again shown what they think of us. Introducing a tariff for us solely speaks multitudes, and so soon after banning us solely from queuing, please note the word solely.

 

[Fisherman]

Well, well.
I just got my hands on some figures for the Ardrossan to Brodick crossing for 2020
102,459 cars
6,864 commercial vehicles.
352 coaches

2,642 motorhomes and caravans.
In winter months motorhomes are less than 1% of the vehicles transported.
These figures make a mockery of what has been going on in recent times.

I am waiting for the figures for all their crossings, and will post them when I receive them.

 

[reiverlad]

I know both the benefits and the challenges & penalties of living here on Bute.
The benefit of a relaxing lifestyle combined with stunning views are hard to beat.
Also, having a regular bus service to get around here on the island is another welcome bonus.

The challenges are that in bad weather you have no idea if you are gonna get on or off the island !
The penalties of high food costs combined with a restricted range of goods and clothing all makes everyone dig deep into their pockets to live.
The other penalty I have to look out for, is the sneaky visits over here by Wully

I have a huge difference to get on and off with my motorhome depending on where I want to go.

A 35 minute ferry trip to Wemyss Bay is £25.60 return and a 5 minute ferry trip north to Colintraive is £14.20 return

The islanders are encouraged by Calmac to go on the ferry as foot passengers and to that end it costs me £1.50 return.

A significant increase in the ferry cost for my motorhome would certainly make me think carefully as to whether I would continue to live here on Bute.

 

[Fisherman]

I know both the benefits and the challenges & penalties of living here on Bute.
The benefit of a relaxing lifestyle combined with stunning views are hard to beat.
Also, having a regular bus service to get around here on the island is another welcome bonus.

The challenges are that in bad weather you have no idea if you are gonna get on or off the island !
The penalties of high food costs combined with a restricted range of goods and clothing all makes everyone dig deep into their pockets to live.
The other penalty I have to look out for, is the sneaky visits over here by Wully

I have a huge difference to get on and off with my motorhome depending on where I want to go.

A 35 minute ferry trip to Wemyss Bay is £25.60 return and a 5 minute ferry trip north to Colintraive is £14.20 return

The islanders are encouraged by Calmac to go on the ferry as foot passengers and to that end it costs me £1.50 return.

A significant increase in the ferry cost for my motorhome would certainly make me think carefully as to whether I would continue to live here on Bute.

If I was living on a Scottish island I would be contacting my councillor to ask why on Earth there are people who wish to punish those visiting your island. I know Bute well, from ages 3-14 my parents took me to the coop camps in Canada Hill. From there as a boy I ventured all over your island. Pike fishing on lochs Fad and Ascog was great then. My only 20lb plus pike came from the Dam at loch Ascog.
Seriously these proposals are a disgrace, as I have shown motorhomes make up less than 3% of vehicles on the Arran crossing, probably the same for Bute. I am still waiting for figures on all of CalMacs crossings.

 

[alcam]

Well, well.
I just got my hands on some figures for the Ardrossan to Brodick crossing for 2020
102,459 cars
6,864 commercial vehicles.
352 coaches

2,642 motorhomes and caravans.
In winter months motorhomes are less than 1% of the vehicles transported.
These figures make a mockery of what has been going on in recent times.

I am waiting for the figures for all their crossings, and will post them when I receive them.

Pity they couldn't break it down to tourist cars and residents . Average 50 vans a week ?
Probably huge variation between summer and winter .
Even if vans take up double the space still not huge number

 

[Fisherman]

Pity they couldn't break it down to tourist cars and residents . Average 50 vans a week ?
Probably huge variation between summer and winter .
Even if vans take up double the space still not huge number

Believe it or not they include motorhomes as cars. Fortunately I know someone who can get info on Motorhome figures separately that are not posted online. I can tell you that in 2020 CalMac transported 827,526 cars, 1,604 coaches, and 68,397 commercial vehicles on all of their routes combined. But trying to get a figure for motorhomes will take a while. Our figure is within the total for cars, and I suspect it will be less than 3% of all vehicles, which makes a mockery of this new charge. If we all stopped travelling on the ferries it would hardly make much difference. Also don’t forget that at least half of the motorhomes head to campsites, with more including ourselves who spend some of their visit in them.