Butane gas issues

[jimbohorlicks]

Hi everyone
I am after some advice/info.
I normally use 2 x 6kg propane bottles and have also looked at converting these to the "gas-it" system or similar at some time later this year.
However I have just been given a 13kg Butane cyclinder full of gas. Much to my surprise it fitted in my gas locker along with a 6kg propane back up.
I obtained the correct fittings and checked the gas rings -light up ok and also the fridge. I also checked the trauma boiler but only for a short while-everything appeared to work ok.
We went out wilding at the weekend -pretty cold outside but I thought with the butane 13kgs we would have plenty of heating gas available-Fridge was running on the butane ok and we boiled a few kettles of water for brews etc and cooked oure tea. on the first night-about 2 dec C outside
Came to turn on the boiler and got the dreaded red light-kept on trying and the boiler would not light up.I first thought the boiler was b***ered . I switched over to the propane gas and all was ok-the boiler lit straight away -all other appliances also ok.

Has anyone experieced anything similar?-is it because the gas was too cold?--it had been outside in my gas locker for the past 3 weeks -when I first tried it on the van it had been stored in a garage, so not so cold.
(I have now taken the butane tank out and storing it in the garage -to possibly warm up before trying it again)

Any thoughts?

Jimbo

 

[oldish hippy]

yes minus 12 gas froze hence southern frostie ps coffee froze also try wrapping in blanket with hot water bottle

 

[FULL TIMER]

butane will not gas at anything less than 2 degree's Celsius, which is why your appliances would not work, ideal in the summer months though

 

[Deleted member 207]

You can buy a little 12V block heater that clips over the metal pipes (if you have them) just prior to the regulator - try Wynnun Gas. Its a very cheap way to solve the problem of gas freezing in the regulator. If its too cold then the gas wont give off enough vapour for the block heater to help. Why the other appliances worked and the Truma did not is a bit of a mystery unless its been specifically jetted for propane, but I doubt that as most Trumas will work on LPG (mixtures of propane/butane) from Norway to Spain without problems. It could be something as simple as the flame being slightly smaller with propane and not touching the flame out probe - but fixing that will be a major drama.

 

[MATS]

Low or no gas pressure as simple as that - butane is rubbish in Winter, had 2 of the 4.5kgs in my old van and the van was just not used Nov - march. Now I stick to propane all year round. That said butane does burn hotter when it is warm - I can never get my wok searing hot on the hob using propane.

 

[Deleted member 8180]

Had a similar problem when I got some dodgy propane in France - allegedly some of it has a large proportion of butane. This wasn't a problem in France in the summer, but is in UK winter... the hob and fridge worked ok but the heating tripped the secumotion regulator every time. I think this was because the gas mix could vapourise rapidly enough for the smaller appliances, but couldn't keep up with the heating. Fortunately had a calor propane as back up.

 

[Rubbertramp]

I wrapped my Butane cylinder in Rockwool insulation (about twenty quid a pack from builders merchants or free from construction site skips!) and it gassed OK for a couple of winters down to about minus 5. Didn't work though on the weekend at Stonehenge oldish hippy mentioned above....-12. Only use Propane in the winter now!

 

[Deleted member 3011]

"I wrapped my Butane cylinder in Rockwool insulation (about twenty quid a pack from builders merchants or free from construction site skips!) and it gassed OK for a couple of winters down to about minus 5. "

Actually, contrary to expectations, this just makes it worse. For the liquid to evaporate, heat is needed and normally there is enough heat coming in through the steel cylinder walls to counteract the cooling of the liquid.
That the liquid is cooled when gas is being drawn off can easily be verified by feeling the bottom of the tank when lots of gas is being used to run a space heater..

If you insulate the cylinder, no external heat can reach the liquid and therefore the temperature of the liquid will drop below the gassing temperature even when the ambient temperature is well above 2C.

The only way to avoid the problem is to provide external heat to the cylinder, either by ducting warm air around and under the gas locker as I did in Morocco when I was running on local butane, or fit some sort of heat tracing to the outside of the bottle, -- or use propane

 

[Rubbertramp]

"I wrapped my Butane cylinder in Rockwool insulation (about twenty quid a pack from builders merchants or free from construction site skips!) and it gassed OK for a couple of winters down to about minus 5. "

Actually, contrary to expectations, this just makes it worse. For the liquid to evaporate, heat is needed and normally there is enough heat coming in through the steel cylinder walls to counteract the cooling of the liquid.
That the liquid is cooled when gas is being drawn off can easily be verified by feeling the bottom of the tank when lots of gas is being used to run a space heater..

If you insulate the cylinder, no external heat can reach the liquid and therefore the temperature of the liquid will drop below the gassing temperature even when the ambient temperature is well above 2C.

The only way to avoid the problem is to provide external heat to the cylinder, either by ducting warm air around and under the gas locker as I did in Morocco when I was running on local butane, or fit some sort of heat tracing to the outside of the bottle, -- or use propane

Well I'm just a simple westcountry boy and don't know a lot about the physics, all I know is that it worked....for two winters at outside temperatures of down to minus 5.....maybe it had something to do with the rockwool keeping all the accumulated heat in from the daytime sun?

 

[Firefox]

I have been in RubberTramps van when it has been very cold and yes his system does seem to work. I guess you would have to use the van fairly regularly or full time though. If you let it go cold during a freezing spell, it's not going to work for you.

 

[Teutone]

the truma secumotion regulator has the option to add a 12V heater cartridge to avoid freezing.

 

[jimbohorlicks]

Thanks for the responses and advice
I will stick with the propane bottles for the rest of the winter and use the butane when the weather changes for the better ( probably July by the way the weather forcasts are):dance:

cheers

Jimbo