Beware the Public Spaces Protection Order

All of this springs from the coalition governments "Bonfire of Red Tape" and "Hands off Government" announcements, resulting in devolving central powers to local government.

These orders only need local advertising a one paper (local rag) to comply with a requirement for advertising and consultation. Mis the adverts and the laws will be approved unopposed. I said this before and will say it again we ALL need to be checking what our individual councils are proposing ((check their web sites for consultations on a weekly basis) and let the greater community know of such proposals.

The authorities are not incurring running costs in some of these proposals as they are entering into agreements with companies that say the costs will be covered by fine income. So there is an incentive to issue fines no initial warning as they are not cost effective.

Thanks Tom for the heads up on this.
 
Another example I heard of is that dog walkers will be stopped and if they are not in possession of an unused bag to collect they dogs droppings they will be fined £300.

This seems heavy handed but as a litter picker locally I know that some people will just drop litter etc. and not clear up for themselves.
 
Thanks John,

There seems to be no burden of proof.

If you get a parking ticket, a PCN I mean, then the enforcement guy will take a photograph as proof; how your're parked or a picture of the out of time payment docket. With a PSPO it seems there is no proof necessary. A warden says he sees you having a drink in a non-drinking area and confiscates your booze whether open or not. A fine of up to £300, or maybe more for all I know, and no proof needed.

So, not guilty, you don't pay it.

Then you get taken to court. Not to prove your guilt – there is no need for that – but to get a court order to recover from you the unpaid Fixed Penalty Notice. You're guilty of that and that particular court will not take into account your pleading not guilty to the original offence.

These things are very dangerous.
 
John Thompson said:
Another example I heard of is that dog walkers will be stopped and if they are not in possession of an unused bag to collect they dogs droppings they will be fined £300.

This seems heavy handed but as a litter picker locally I know that some people will just drop litter etc. and not clear up for themselves.
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Can't see how that could possibly work legally John .
 
Talk about wanting their cake and eating it.

It seems a civil matter becomes a criminal offence if you refuse to comply.:mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
yorkslass said:
Talk about wanting their cake and eating it.

It seems a civil matter becomes a criminal offence if you refuse to comply.:mad2::mad2::mad2:
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I agree.

It seems to me that there is no restraint. The power to object is severely limited and the option of taking court action is severely limited. For example, I can not take a legal objection to a court over a motorhome banning PSPO in your area if I do not live there. Or, some places have said, if I'm not a frequent and regular visitor.

Anything a council thinks objectionable can be made into a crime. There is no burden of proof. The way is open for corruption on a large scale. The example is the ban already referred to of making it a crime to advertise, verbally, punting opportunities on the River Cam. Motorhoming experience says that there is a very good possibility that this crime was created by, or on behalf of, owners of punt boats for hire on the River Cam. Simple strangling the opposition.
 
John Thompson said:
Another example I heard of is that dog walkers will be stopped and if they are not in possession of an unused bag to collect they dogs droppings they will be fined £300.

This seems heavy handed but as a litter picker locally I know that some people will just drop litter etc. and not clear up for themselves.
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Never mind dog toilet wast,have you noticed how many public toilets are now closed or non existant these days,belfast city and many small towns /villages do not have a loo,so now i have to remember what shops have them or im in trouble.:dance:
 
trevskoda said:
Just dont tell them and walk on,i would think if they contacted police it would not be followed up as cops have more important things here to do than chasing folk without poo bags.
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Or, if you happen to have one - squash a full one into their pocket.

EDIT: But, seriously, most of us are law-abiding and would abide by the law and comply.
 
Take your wallet

If we protest peacefully we need to take our wallets.
There is an alternative but obviously it can't be discussed here.

We have many excellent people doing great work to argue the better way but it is futile in the long run.
The government takes our money to use against us.
They employ so many people at our expense to work against us full time that resisting within their rules is futile. If you mount a successful challenge they then change the rules to prevent it happening again.

If we had one coordinating body for all the 'for the people' based organisations (such as 38Degrees, CND, GreenPeace, the unions etc.) then maybe the tide can be turned. The idea would be that regardless of whether you were a member of a particular organisation that was mounting a protest, you would still support it. For example, your specialist area may be CND based but if GreenPeace was holding a protest you would still support it trusting in the validity of their protest through their inclusion of the overall body.
It is the opposite of divide and conquer.
We need to pull our abilities together and protest on masse so that even the suggestion of a big protest scares the government.

Short if that we have little chance as they are already confident they can handle all the organisations individually.
 
trevskoda said:
Never mind dog toilet wast,have you noticed how many public toilets are now closed or non existant these days,belfast city and many small towns /villages do not have a loo,so now i have to remember what shops have them or im in trouble.:dance:
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Ironic Trev, last couple of days investigating on behalf of a disabled group the legality of refusing people access to toilets in shops , Some of these people are incontinent and can get caught short, Refusal by companies in these circumstances is the law is on their side , one thing seems to be a lot of shops their liability insurance doesn't allow cover away from the shop floor ...The world has gone mad another example of what is the human thing to do ...there are also health and safety issues too...cant believe it can you ?

Re dog wardens June time collared by 3 and asked if I had a bag, they suspected my dog had defecated, so obliged to give my name and address I did and spoke very quickly too quick for them to write it down....they asked me to repeat it told them no need too given the info if they are too slow to write it down not my issue I had discharged my duties. I also had a bag and he hadn't had a **** if he had I had the bag ...Sherlock

re dog wardens I walked off one stood in front and I offered to plant the fucker straight in the canal...they allegedly rang the police,, walked home and heard no more.

Most people would perhaps be startled at their confrontation and I am not confident re safe convictions that's what concerns me with some of these laws the company involved have tried fining people for dropping bread feeding ducks ( case thrown out ) level of idiots we are dealing with

Channa
 
Jesus!

We'll all be having to walk around with registration plates on our backs so they can identify and fine us.

It's the only way they would get any info out of me. As Trev said, the police have better things to do than follow up on this kind of crap.
 
Wonder what they would do if I answered in Danish?

"Jeg taler ikke engelsk"
 
Robmac said:
Wonder what they would do if I answered in Danish?

"Jeg taler ikke engelsk"
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Probably arrest you , detain you on bread and water with a few drunks and shoplifters as neighbours...high level crime contact a translator ...In the mean time don't bother ringing when you have been burgaled or a vehicle theft , they are too busy

jeez sarcastic today

Channa
 
alcam said:
Very dodgy ground legally . Don't believe any court would , or could , find you guilty .
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If you had, genuinely, refused? No chance I'm afraid. You've committed a crime - assuming the PSPO has been passed. I think that would be your only defence (that the council had no right to pass it) - and that would fail because, I'm certain, the council would have approved the PSPO. It became law from the moment the council put its seal upon it.

I agree with Private. Peaceful protest has worked in the past; I'd hope it could work again but the idea of organisations coming together appeals to me and I'd support cooperation.

The trouble is - many people will say that we're trying to approve of dog muck everywhere, or we want to approve drinking in public, or we want to allow young people to congregate witn boistrous behaviour. So the councils get away with it. And every time the council gets away with it the water gets a little hotter around us frogs.

Gonna sign the petition, Kermit?
 
Until this – and at least one other – was authorised there were strict limits on what councils could do. The landmark case which enshrined this in our legal system was Entick vs Carrington Entick v Carrington and the principle was laid down that individuals like you and me could do whatever we wanted provided there was no law restricting us. Government could only do provided there was a law permitting it.

Do you see the difference? We can do what we like unless it's prohibited but the council can only do what it's permitted to do.

Well – we've now given the council the right to decide for itself what it is permitted to do. There is no restraint upon them like there was with byelaws. Byelaws had to be approved by Government. Councils didn't approve them, councils could only ask for approvel. Councils now give themselves their own approval. No restraint. No examination. No control.
 
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