Beware the Public Spaces Protection Order

[maureenandtom]

Byelaws. We have had a very small success in opposing byelaws affecting motorhomers. Byelaws seem, on the face of it, to offer councils very effective means of controlling us. They can be used to make parking (decriminalised) into a crime. The one defect about byelaws, as far as councils are concerned, is that they must be approved by a higher authority - central government. They are supposed to be used when there is no other existing alternative so a reasonable opposition to a byelaw is that there are other alternatives already available and on at least two occasions byelaws have been refused by central government after complaints from motorhomers. On a third, after a conviction in a magistrates' court, an appeal court overturned the conviction and, so far as I know, that, still valid, byelaw has never been used again for prosecution or for the summary issue of a Fixed Penalty Notice.

This has all changed. There is now an alternative to a byelaw. A Public Spaces Protection Order. This, despite its friendly name, is no more than the ability of the council to pass its own byelaws and disobedience becomes a crime. PSPOs have been passed a number of times and there is very little we can do about them.

Mostly they are about low level disorder. Cambridge Council, for example, used a PSPO Public Spaces Protection Order (PSPO) | Cambridge City Council
to prohibit advertising to sell the hire of punts. Try that in Cambridge and you might incur a £1000 fine.



In other places, google them, you can be prosecuted for spitting or you can have unopened alcoholic drinks confiscated. Don't give up your recently purchase bottle of wine to a council employed (or sub-contracted) Civil Enforcement Officer (parking warden) and you might get a £1000 fine.

Salford prohibits the public from certain places during certain hours to prevent people gathering when, for example, drugs might be sold or used. The logic is that the council can't prevent drugs being sold but it can prevent anyone being in that place at certain times by simply preventing ALL of us from being there. If there's nobody there then no drugs can be bought and sold. Simple. Dudley Street, proposed Public Spaces Protection Order •
Salford City Council

One, the Brighton and Hove PSPO, Public Space Protection Orders | Brighton & Hove City Council contains this prohibition “occupying any vehicle, caravan, tent or any other structure" (no limit on time) and this has now been used to remove motorhomes as we have seen in the thread about it. The council gave itself permission to remove the vehicles itself.

It's up to the council alone to pass the PSPO and there seems to be nothing we can do about it other than apply for a judicial review within six weeks of the order being made. Six weeks is hardly any time at all to gather evidence to present to a court so any objections must be made at the public consultation stage. The council need not act on objections. The Brighton and Hove PSPO was objected to by no less an authority than the Equality and Human Rights Commission but the council ignored it and passed the order. So much for the Equality and Human Rights Commission. If the council can ignore that body then what chance for the rest of us?

PSPOs, it seems to me, will be used increasingly in the future to control us. Forget Byelaws, TROs or Off-street Parking Orders. Councils have a new tool. Brighton and Hove is the trail blazer and other councils will be watching its success. There'll be plenty more of these orders.

We're doomed.

 

[carol]

Very depressing but thanks for the research and information.

 

[Private]

Thank you.

You impress me maureenandtom with your work.

I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you in expressing my belief that until we take to the streets in violent protest there will be no let up from our oppression.

 

[maureenandtom]

You impress me maureenandtom with your work.

I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you in expressing my belief that until we take to the streets in violent protest there will be no let up from our oppression.

All we need is a leader.

The press, even the Guardian, has had something to say about them

PSPOs: the new control orders threatening our public spaces | Cities | The Guardian

Fancy leading us into peaceful protest?

 

[trevskoda]

Did you ever hear of the saying to boil a frog,if you put a frog in water and slowly bring to the boil the frog wont jump but simply boil to death.
Well this is what our gov is doing to all of us now by slowly bringing in laws of oppression,right to speak out ,protest etc.
We are as frogs now and heading back to what our forefathers fought ww2 for our rights and freedoms being taken away.
Its time we all stood up and be counted,think of our childrens future if any at this rate,they wont have one.
GB is now coming to an end as any viable power in the world,more a laughing stock,and we are letting it happen,rant over for today.:mad2:

 

[colinm]

It's not the first time the government has created legislation which local governments have taken and abused, remember how the anti terrorist laws where used by some councils to spy on school pupils to ensure they lived in catchment areas.

 

[Private]

I'll do my piece.

All we need is a leader.

The press, even the Guardian, has had something to say about them

PSPOs: the new control orders threatening our public spaces | Cities | The Guardian

Fancy leading us into peaceful protest?

Peaceful protest is just a good oportunity for the authorities to log details and bully protesters; governments don't understand peace.

 

[Fazerloz]

Did you ever hear of the saying to boil a frog,if you put a frog in water and slowly bring to the boil the frog wont jump but simply boil to death.
Well this is what our gov is doing to all of us now by slowly bringing in laws of oppression,right to speak out ,protest etc.
We are as frogs now and heading back to what our forefathers fought ww2 for our rights and freedoms being taken away.
Its time we all stood up and be counted,think of our childrens future if any at this rate,they wont have one.
GB is now coming to an end as any viable power in the world,more a laughing stock,and we are letting it happen,rant over for today.:mad2:

Not only is your frog well and truly boiled Trev but your goose is cooked as well.
The one thing those in power always want is more and more control and power over the population. It's a long time since this was a free country, not as bad as some yet but heading that way. Most of it been sold as control of terrorism which is difficult to argue against.

 

[malagaoth]

I realise that I am probably in a minority of one here and what I am about to say might not be too popular but here goes.

I have no issue with PSPOs, I dont want motorhomes parked for days on end at every scenic spot in the country, nor do I want advertising posters plastered all over the place (not for punts or anything else).

When I wild camp - and I do it quite a lot - over 100 nights so far this year I ensure that my presence doesnt offend any one, arrive late leave early even if some one did feel the need to complain by the time they come out Im gone! (in these days of belt tightening and fiscal carefulness I dont think that they work nights!)

Has any one driven near Loch Lomond or Loch Earn (previous to this year when the problem has been somewhat addressed) lines of motorhomes and caravans which arrive in spring and remain until autumn there is no grey or black waste disposal so guess where most of it goes, they could take their rubbish away but by the way things looked few did.

I was in Orkney during the summer and there was a M/h parked in Kirkwalls main carpark for weeks, it never moved, I dont know what they did with their black waste but I know what they did with the grey - the large scummy patch under the M/h testified to where it was being dumped (and dont even start me about the generator) people should not have to put up with this, IT IS NOT OK!

Are PSPOs going to be misused? you betcha, and when they are I will vent my spleen then but not before.

 

[suneye]

Ok so you could try chaining yourself to the railings at the houses of parliament but you would probably be carted off before getting the padlock out of your pocket so a little peaceful protest would be to sign this petition. it may not be much, it may not be successful but at least we will have done something and it doesn't take a minute.

Public Spaces Protection Orders (PSPO) | Campaigns by You

 

[DnK]

Ok so you could try chaining yourself to the railings at the houses of parliament but you would probably be carted off before getting the padlock out of your pocket so a little peaceful protest would be to sign this petition. it may not be much, it may not be successful but at least we will have done something and it doesn't take a minute.

Public Spaces Protection Orders (PSPO) | Campaigns by You

Signed.

 

[maureenandtom]

I realise that I am probably in a minority of one here and what I am about to say might not be too popular but here goes.

I have no issue with PSPOs, I dont want motorhomes parked for days on end at every scenic spot in the country, nor do I want advertising posters plastered all over the place (not for punts or anything else).

When I wild camp - and I do it quite a lot - over 100 nights so far this year I ensure that my presence doesnt offend any one, arrive late leave early even if some one did feel the need to complain by the time they come out Im gone! (in these days of belt tightening and fiscal carefulness I dont think that they work nights!)

Has any one driven near Loch Lomond or Loch Earn (previous to this year when the problem has been somewhat addressed) lines of motorhomes and caravans which arrive in spring and remain until autumn there is no grey or black waste disposal so guess where most of it goes, they could take their rubbish away but by the way things looked few did.

I was in Orkney during the summer and there was a M/h parked in Kirkwalls main carpark for weeks, it never moved, I dont know what they did with their black waste but I know what they did with the grey - the large scummy patch under the M/h testified to where it was being dumped (and dont even start me about the generator) people should not have to put up with this, IT IS NOT OK!

Are PSPOs going to be misused? you betcha, and when they are I will vent my spleen then but not before.

Then vent your spleen now. They are being misused now.

 

[mistericeman]

I realise that I am probably in a minority of one here and what I am about to say might not be too popular but here goes.

I have no issue with PSPOs, I dont want motorhomes parked for days on end at every scenic spot in the country, nor do I want advertising posters plastered all over the place (not for punts or anything else).

When I wild camp - and I do it quite a lot - over 100 nights so far this year I ensure that my presence doesnt offend any one, arrive late leave early even if some one did feel the need to complain by the time they come out Im gone! (in these days of belt tightening and fiscal carefulness I dont think that they work nights!)

Has any one driven near Loch Lomond or Loch Earn (previous to this year when the problem has been somewhat addressed) lines of motorhomes and caravans which arrive in spring and remain until autumn there is no grey or black waste disposal so guess where most of it goes, they could take their rubbish away but by the way things looked few did.

I was in Orkney during the summer and there was a M/h parked in Kirkwalls main carpark for weeks, it never moved, I dont know what they did with their black waste but I know what they did with the grey - the large scummy patch under the M/h testified to where it was being dumped (and dont even start me about the generator) people should not have to put up with this, IT IS NOT OK!

Are PSPOs going to be misused? you betcha, and when they are I will vent my spleen then but not before.

Far from alone chap.....

Pretty much took the words out of my mouth... well said.

 

[maureenandtom]

Here, let's make a start. Is the council misusing its authority?

The order says:




So that is ...Any vehicle. Any vehicle with an occupant.

But the council on this day discriminated. It targeted only lived in vehicles. It said so:




The real target, I submit, of the order. The "any vehicle" provision is just a smokscreen because to say only motorhomes in the order would be illegal under the equality act.

I've signed the petition. I'd urge all to do the same.

 

[RoaminRog]

Could all this be an easy way for local councils to deal quickly and effectively with the 'travelling community' who delight us all with the amount of filth and rubbish they leave behind.
I would pay money to witness any official demanding on the spot fines from them.

 

[maureenandtom]

Could all this be an easy way for local councils to deal quickly and effectively with the 'travelling community' who delight us all with the amount of filth and rubbish they leave behind.
I would pay money to witness any official demanding on the spot fines from them.

For the Brighton and Hove order, yes, I think so. The Equality Commission recommended that the council not implement their order. I think this is why it was worded to include all vehicles.

Worthing Council has also introduced an order prohibiting overnight camping https://www.adur-worthing.gov.uk/media/media,141630,en.pdf and this, I believe, is only the start.

You do realise, I hope, that all councils who have introduced TROs etc to deal with we ordinary motoromers also accuse us of exactly what you've accused the travelling community of. With ony one or two minor exceptions we ordinary motorhomers have never generated the complaint councils allege. In Keswick just lately, the local press issued a photograph alleged to be our rubbish but later proven to have been a stock picture and nothing to do with either us or the site complained of.

I think PSPOs are a gift from a benevolent God to councils. Keswick council will now allege - not have to prove - our neglicent attitude to the environment, introduce a PSPO - and we're history. They can use them for anything - not just to target our own activity but anything at all.

 

[maureenandtom]

Here's the proposed order for Doncaster.

Public Spaces Protection Order for Doncaster Town Centre - Doncaster Council

Item number six prohibits you smoking in the town centre. And you can't congregate in a group of three or more if it is likely to annoy any person (Item 4)..

But Item 8 is for us. Camping or sleeping overnight with or without a tent, or using a vehicle, caravan or any other structure in a public place

It makes me wonder if the area, but it's a large area, is to be pedestrianised; Closure of streets and highways used to be a big thing needing a magistrate's order. But a PSPO seems to be able to do these things without much public consultation.

The public consultation for this one expires today and has been open since 17th September (I think) – not much time to make your views known.



These things are going to be used all over the place.

 

[Channa]

Quite frankly Doncaster proposed PSPO long overdue and I suspect applied with in the spirit of the legislation.

I go back occasionally and the town centre is full of anti social behaviour, including misuse of alcohol , begging etc,

However my serious reservation is the genuine homeless with nothing are being criminally penalised for their vagrancy. The impact of pspos far greater for some people than frankly parking of a motorhome.

People talk of alternative remedies that already exist, 28 days traditional eviction order , 28 days to accumulate rubbish and impact on an area greater, it is easy to see why PSPO are being used simple fasttrack, the issue is the fairness of terms which varies order to order.

Controlling the masses is nothing new, it just seems Orwell was a few years out with his prediction.

What is even scarier is the Equality act is being deliberately broken by the government that introduced it, The discrimination of disabled people by the DWP illustrates again control of the masses. So we have the Equality Act 2010 telling us one thing and a raft of legislation that says another

A mess, and sorry for my lack of enthusiasm at petitions waste of energy only structured challenge in the courts will change anything

Channa

 

[maureenandtom]

That's all probably true. The range of things councils seem to be using PSPOs for is huge. This order proposes a ban on the wearing of face coverings. Now I think most will agree with this but that doesn't make it right.

I wonder if our muslim fellow citizens have heard of this one or what will happen when they do. I can't really seeing this get through to the final order but it will be very interesting if it does – or even more interesting if the council tries to enforce it with a veiled muslim woman.

- Proposal for Public Spaces Protection Orders (PSPOs) in Westvale, Kirkby

 

[Channa]

That's all probably true. The range of things councils seem to be using PSPOs for is huge. This order proposes a ban on the wearing of face coverings. Now I think most will agree with this but that doesn't make it right.

I wonder if our muslim fellow citizens have heard of this one or what will happen when they do. I can't really seeing this get through to the final order but it will be very interesting if it does – or even more interesting if the council tries to enforce it with a veiled muslim woman.

- Proposal for Public Spaces Protection Orders (PSPOs) in Westvale, Kirkby

PSPO's opens up a proper can of worms, and it doesn't take a genius to work out that ,PSPO's are far easier to administer than messing about with TRO's or Bylaws.

On face value little can be done if you are accused of being in breach, This has massive implications for any form of alternative living accommodation or lifestyle in the case of full timers who we have proved are travellers no different to the other travelling communities so I find the anti traveller comments a little ironic.

It is going to take someone like the ECHR to challenge in the courts, As I see things so far headless and ruthless legislation with no precedents set by the justices to temper it all

Channa