Battery chargers

[Nabsim]

@Sharpie i wired the a Votronic is B2B in a similar way @Okta did his, you just break into existing wiring. From memory I think this only required one additional cable, I know it was very quick and easy. I still have starter battery charging from my solar and from mains.

Adding the additional charger was one of the first jobs I did as I knew there was a high risk of damaging the EBL as it has 270ah battery fitted plus an allowance for starter battery and a single 18a charger. My memory is not good enough to remember if I fitted a fuse or not, while I will curse if I didn’t I will also be quite happy if that’s it lol

I am happy to use the dumb Schaudt chargers on gel setting as the voltage is in range, it was purely not enough amps why I was looking to change. Admittedly I do manage my 230v charging cutting off when I get around 90% so it may not be a solution for everyone.

 

[Nabsim]

Mine is not the same as Okta B2B, it is this one https://www.votronic.de/index.php/en/products2/series-vcc/standard-version/vcc-1212-30-new#downloads

 

[Okta]

That all makes sense, but you also lose the (primitive) starter battery trickle charge maintenance, because, unless the B2B covers that, there is no route for it to happen.

Perhaps not. The wiring diagram for the EBL29 I had shows the separation relay on the main engine battery connection as open except when D+ is active. I think the trickle feed is via a smaller connection, 8 on block 3.

 

[Okta]

Mine is not the same as Okta B2B, it is this one https://www.votronic.de/index.php/en/products2/series-vcc/standard-version/vcc-1212-30-new#downloads

The principle should be the same with the 1212-30 and 1212-45.

 

[Nabsim]

The principle should be the same with the 1212-30 and 1212-45.

Yes same principle but different unit, may be slight connection differences but without going back over it I can’t be sure.

 

[Nabsim]

Okay, genny running and connected to EHU socket, charge going in to the battery bank is showing as 16.6a on the BMV. Full charge light is lit on the LAS1218-2 and unfortunately the 5th from right fuse is in place. Time to start playing as from what everyone says that’s only output from one charger. Battery bank is at 69% SOC so should take full output from chargers.

 

[Nabsim]

Okay turned off 230v breakers and pulled fuse #5, checked fuse and it is good. Turned breakers back on and charger in the EBL is putting 8.1a into the battery bank.

 

[Nabsim]

Killed 230v and replaced fuse #5 then turned breakers back on, now showing 19.1/19.4a going in.
To ensure these readings are true I turned off the compressor fridge after I put the second charger back online. The initial 16a may have been a little more if the compressor had been running but still nowhere near the 36a it should be putting in.
everything on Schaudt side set to Gel and I thought that meant it would be putting more in but let me double check charge profiles

 

[Sharpie]

Perhaps not. The wiring diagram for the EBL29 I had shows the separation relay on the main engine battery connection as open except when D+ is active. I think the trickle feed is via a smaller connection, 8 on block 3.
View attachment 76383

I think perhaps not. block3 is for the control panel.

The route probably is through through block 2 (5F) pin 1 which I had missed because it's labelled "+starter battery for refridgerator" And that is through an external 20A fuse.

As I said the EBL diagrams are muddled, and frankly block 2 connection is unnecessary except for the pin 3 for the D+ input, every other bit of that could have been done internally in the EBL, except that I expect they have just evolved this way. At least they have kept the connections consistent so old and new versions can be mixed and matched.

An old design, getting older, they really should up their game, and put in more modern internals, sure still keep them the same on the outside, but move forwards rather than resting on their laurels and continuing demand. Spend a little on R+D I'd suggest.

If starting from scratch I personally wouldn't be even using a D+ input, but sensing it within the unit.

See https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/split-charging.html for some other ways of doing these things.

But EBLs are what many of us have got, can mostly get the job done (apart from their poor LAS1218 chargers), so I expect will be around for a long time yet.

If doing my own van fit-out I wouldn't consider one, much better ways of doing it myself I think.

 

[Sharpie]

Okay turned off 230v breakers and pulled fuse #5, checked fuse and it is good. Turned breakers back on and charger in the EBL is putting 8.1a into the battery bank.

Oh well, if the internal LAS1218 is only actually putting out 8.1A then that's pretty poor, but also explains why you are seeing only 16A with two combined.

So I take it all back and think you may be on the right track looking into alternative chargers that might genuinely kick out say 30A into lithiums. Good luck.

 

[Nabsim]

I will check again in a few hours when it should be on the maximum output stage for 16 hours. Looking at both the EBL and LAS1218 documentation I am fairly sure that they should be putting out 18a each with up to 3a going to starter.
May try an email to Schaudt

 

[Nabsim]

@Sharpie regarding EBL fitment, a friend bought a 2018 Hymer that retails around £120,000 and that was fitted with an EBL, the manufacturers like them.

 

[Okta]

If starting from scratch I personally wouldn't be even using a D+ input, but sensing it within the unit.

I think it needs to be D+ with smart alternators because the B2B voltage sensing may cut out when the alternator voltage drops.

 

[Sharpie]

@Sharpie regarding EBL fitment, a friend bought a 2018 Hymer that retails around £120,000 and that was fitted with an EBL, the manufacturers like them.

The manufacturers have been using them for decades and know how to wire them in. Doubtless get them at good prices too. But that doesn't mean that they are still "state of the art". The LAS1218 has been inside them since the year dot but not evolved much AFAIK. It is an "up to 18A" device, maybe with a following wind on a good day.

Now if they got in some talented younger engineers and put together something more modern, integrated, B2B as well, MPPT solar, internal BVM, bluetoothed with apps, plug and play with older ones, well that could be interesting. But costly in R+D and manufacturing.

You asked earlier why say a Votronic triple costs so much (I don't think it does really), well the separate units ISTM are built to a price point, plastic cases etc. I expect it's much the same circuitry inside the "professional" ones for emergency vehicles etc. but these will hopefully also be made to just always work, maybe a few higher grade components, to additional standards about which I know little.

A fire engine crew, or ambulance, or something else don't wan't to know anything about managing such things, never mind fussing about with monitoring, apps etc. but expect to jump into their vehicles and go, and rely on the electrical system to just work. Batteries will be changed as scheduled maintenance, not flogged to death, procedures in place when they return to base and get laid up until the next emergency.

 

[Sharpie]

I think it needs to be D+ with smart alternators because the B2B voltage sensing may cut out when the alternator voltage drops.

Isn't that the major reason for B2B, that they figure that out for themselves ? And adjust accordingly.

A vehicle with a smart alternator may be cycling the starter between say 100% and 80%, using it also for regen braking, stop start, pushing in very high voltages at times, sufficient even to trip a lithium's BMS,

A split charge relay whether self sensing or just switched in and out by D+ really isn't ideal for these. As long as D+ is on, the starter and hab. batteries are in parallel, so the hab. batteries have to cope with what's going on with the starter, whether or not the wiring to them and whatever fuses are there can cope.

 

[Nabsim]

I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say Sharpie, was just saying that they are still being used by well regarded manufacturers. They will not include all the things you mention as they would be unable to charge for the extras lol

if I hadn’t already got MPPT and B2B chargers that do what I want then a Triple would be a bit more attractive but spending around £700 on one then ripping out working kit doesn’t work for me. If I was starting again though or building something...

 

[Nabsim]

Isn't that the major reason for B2B, that they figure that out for themselves ? And adjust accordingly.

A vehicle with a smart alternator may be cycling the starter between say 100% and 80%, using it also for regen braking, stop start, pushing in very high voltages at times, sufficient even to trip a lithium's BMS,

A split charge relay whether self sensing or just switched in and out by D+ really isn't ideal for these. As long as D+ is on, the starter and hab. batteries are in parallel, so the hab. batteries have to cope with what's going on with the starter, whether or not the wiring to them and whatever fuses are there can cope.

You would need an EBL that has the correct lifepo4 settings if you were doing this. Fitting the Votronic B2B between starter battery and EBL eliminates this problem. If you didn’t do this you would need to isolate the parallel battery relay

 

[Sharpie]

You would need an EBL that has the correct lifepo4 settings if you were doing this. Fitting the Votronic B2B between starter battery and EBL eliminates this problem. If you didn’t do this you would need to isolate the parallel battery relay

Yes, but major manufacturers are still putting in EBLs that, as I said, just have a split charge relay. Whereas the base vehicles may have smart alternators, since Euro 5 and 6. So I think that Schaudt perhaps need to up their game. And the manufacturers maybe think a little more and maybe put pressure on Schaudt to develop something more modern.

But you have bypassed that problem, and seem to be on track to sort out your mains charging, so that's all good.

 

[Nabsim]

I don’t know if Charlie’s Hymer had a smart alternator or not, I know it was built on a Fiat. I doubt Charlie will know the model of EBL that was fitted either so can’t check online documentation.

I would hope that manufacturers are putting in a solution that works but that isn’t a given. I suppose until we start seeing lifepo4 coming out the factory and see what they have fitted to deal with the battery technology and smart alternators we won’t know.

It’s quite possible though that mainstream suppliers don’t have a suitable solution yet though.

 

[Okta]

Isn't that the major reason for B2B, that they figure that out for themselves ? And adjust accordingly.

The Votronic instructions say to use D+ with active (smart) alternators. Not a big issue with Fiat motorhomes until now because the smart function was disabled but I think the new testing procedures will mean they are no longer allowed to turn it off. Mercedes did not disable the smart function and I notice that more recent Mercedes Hymers now come with a standard alternator booster, which I take to be a device like a B2B that overcomes the problem.