Aires in the UK

[Canalsman]

I've just heard that the overnight charge at West Beach, Hayling Island is to be increased from the originally published rates of £8 a night from September to May inclusive and £10 a night from June to August inclusive to £10 a night from November to February and £20 a night from 1st March to 31st October. This follows representations to the council from a couple of local campsites....

The effect of this move will be to reduce revenue both for campsites and local government as motorhome owners vote with their wallet and go elsewhere.

It will also, of course, affect revenue from tourism locally - shops, pubs, restaurants etc.

It's incredibly shortsighted. Ridiculous price increases for services with the economy in recession conjures up images of the local councillors attired in ostrich costumes ... and guess where their heads are?

Farcical!

 

[Firefox]

This Hayling Island thing is a clear case of collusion to protect a monopoly.

By raising the prices to ridiculous levels the council are introducing a no overnight parking ban by the back door in a misguided attempt to protect campsites. The type of people who wild in car parks will not use campsites anyway and will go elsewhere.

The economy of Hayling Island will suffer in the long term due to retarded council thinking.

 

[snowbirds]

Aires

Hi Maureenandtom,

We mix Aires and camp sites in Europe, some are very good and some just about passable.I don't mind paying as most are between euro 3-7 and many are in villages or towns, ideal for our fresh bread a must in France, stayed at great one in St Louis over looking the harbour and beach on the edge of town and another on a canal in the Champagne areas, nice people to mix with from many country's, We had loads of help working out how to work the different machine's We will use more this year, but if you find one that' not so good you are only a short drive to the next one.

Regards Snowbirds.:cool1:

Provoked by the reaction to the proposed Aires (or dedicated parking places for motorhomes to satisfy the pedants) in both Blackpool and Scarborough, I want to find out just what is our attitude to the provision of Aires in the UK.

Here's the book I've bought every year since around 2000 – the earliest I still have is 2002 and this might have been the first I bought. But I bought it every year and looked for it every year. In 2002 the book listed 1230 Aires. By 2010 (the last I bought) the book listed 2500 Aires. The growth in Aires is incredible – doubled in 8 years. I can provide similar figures for Italy. I have no doubt that in a few years I will be able to show similar growth in Spain and Portugal. Germany I don't know about.

In common with most people I thought this was a good thing; a wonderful thing; a marvellous thing; something we should emulate in Britain. If only we had forward thinking councils here. What is this British disease which prevents us doing the same? The fantastic growth rate in France must prove that providing Aires is good for everybody. Not just us – everybody. There are a few exceptions but there was pretty full agreement. We should provide Aires.

Blackpool (ok, I know, to satisfy the pedants, it is strictly Fylde not Blackpool) received pretty well a universal acclamation from we motorhomers for their initiative in proposing an Aire and opening it a couple of weeks ago.

Then we got details of a fee and the acclamation turned to disdain.

Scarborough has now decided to begin a year's trial of an Aire (pedants keep quiet please) and there has hardly been a word of praise for their initiative. Did they make a mistake in telling us in their proposal that there would be a charge?

Are we truly the freeloaders who want something for nothing? We want the French experience but we want it for free.

We are a wildcamping site so I can understand those who will stick to wilding no matter what the councils do. But, if you are one of these, do you also refuse to use French Aires? Is there a whiff of hypocrisy there? Make no mistake; not all municipal French Aires are free and it seems to me that previously free ones are increasingly making a charge. I can make a list of the ones I use year after year but I don't need to because we all know that this is so.

We resent being called Freeloaders. But are we? Do we want Aires but only if the council provide them free? Will you pay a fee in France but not in the UK? Why?

Do you think we have enough freedoms anyway if we confront officialdom and demand respect for our freedom to park wherever we want? I'm speaking as one who has tried, and been successful at, confrontation. (Strictly speaking, I didn't confront – I successfully appealed. God protect me from pedants.) I got a bit of stick when I reported that.

I'm asking for a lively debate on the possible provision of Aires in the UK – don't hold back - and I'm asking only to increase my knowledge base and understanding.

 

[fishy & Nina]

Hi Maureenandtom,

We mix Aires and camp sites in Europe, some are very good and some just about passable.I don't mind paying as most are between euro 3-7 and many are in villages or towns, ideal for our fresh bread a must in France, stayed at great one in St Louis over looking the harbour and beach on the edge of town and another on a canal in the Champagne areas, nice people to mix with from many country's, We had loads of help working out how to work the different machine's We will use more this year, but if you find one that' not so good you are only a short drive to the next one.
Regards Snowbirds.:cool1:

And that's the absolute beauty of it in a nutshell........................:cool1:

 

[DRoader]

You can park in the centre of Barcelona in a dedicated motorhome park with 24 hour security, fences barriers etc, for about 20 pounds. For that you also get fresh potable water, grey waste disposal and toilet disposal.

Now compare Barcelona to some of these places we are reading about. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they're probably not.

 

[maureenandtom]

Thanks for input so far. Plenty more to come I hope.

What I get from this is that for a parking space we'd be prepared to pay up to about £5 a night or up to about £10 for a 24 hour period. More than this and we just don't want to know? Yeah, I pretty well agree with that and it will be useful information.

I also get that we just don't trust our local authorities to organise an honest system, that is, they'll use us as a cash generator without providing value for money and also use the provision of an aire as an excuse to restrict us elsewhere. Doesn't surprise me; I've always had a contempt for our local authorities and I've had a bit of stick about that in the past too along the lines of, “Well, go and get yourself elected...”

But where do we go next? Perhaps nowhere? Just accept that this is the British way? Officialdom just wants to rip us off so don't help them to do it? We can carry on the way we are? I can accept that too; I've done well enough for the past twenty years or so and many have done well enough for a lot longer that. Leave well alone?

And that's back to original my question really – do we want to emulate the continental system or is it just too risky trying to get it going in Britain?

 

[barryd]

Whilst I admire your efforts I think its never going to happen in the UK and to be honest Im not bothered. Even if they introduced Aires here I would probably still spend most of my time in mainland Europe. It's just better than here for a whole host of reasons. There are some nice places in the UK and we will still visit them but either wilding or CL sites for us.

This country is backward and stuck in its ways and its ignorant attitude to campers of any description is that they are people who cant afford a proper holiday and are just not worth investing in. Their loss.

 

[John H]

Maybe it is about getting the local businesses on side rather than the councils ?
Chambers of commerce or such like ?
But then again do the councils take any notice of them either ?
You have to remember that most on a council have never run a business and those that do are in it for themselves anyway !
My friend with a campsite was on the council now she has left they trying to shut her down !!!!!!

Depends where you live - around here the district council is currently the same people as the chamber of trade - most of them run businesses but many of them run them badly!

 

[Ste]

Regarding the Original thread.
I don't use them, and I won't use them.
If I have to pay its usually at a PH POI or at one of a few select campsites that still retain an essence of wilding (Clachtoll Beach being one of my favourites). I'm quite happy in a layby with a few truckers, although I do have the advantage of a more stealthy looking van.
Speaking of which I spent a quiet Monday night on Wentworth Carkpark in the centre of Hexham. It does have specific bays for trucks and they were full, but there were several more trucks filling the car bays too. There are toilets and there was a cop car patrolling when i arrived. I think I was meant to pay, but didn't. I arrived after dark and just crashed out. I'd moved to the other end of the CP at 6am for the fair I was attending and noone said anything. BTW its cheap during the day too. £2 for 9 hours.

 

[maureenandtom]

Regarding the Original thread.
I don't use them, and I won't use them.
If I have to pay its usually at a PH POI or at one of a few select campsites that still retain an essence of wilding (Clachtoll Beach being one of my favourites). I'm quite happy in a layby with a few truckers, although I do have the advantage of a more stealthy looking van.
Speaking of which I spent a quiet Monday night on Wentworth Carkpark in the centre of Hexham. It does have specific bays for trucks and they were full, but there were several more trucks filling the car bays too. There are toilets and there was a cop car patrolling when i arrived. I think I was meant to pay, but didn't. I arrived after dark and just crashed out. I'd moved to the other end of the CP at 6am for the fair I was attending and noone said anything. BTW its cheap during the day too. £2 for 9 hours.

Excellent, Thank you.

Do you go abroad? Do you use Aires in France?

 

[Ste]

Excellent, Thank you.

Do you go abroad? Do you use Aires in France?

Haven't had the chance to 'holiday' abroad with the van yet. I have seen the French aires though when working over there. I personally feel they are no better than a normal campsite. (Sometimes worse). I don't really have use for an aire with my van. Very few electrics, and batteries are charged as I drive along, and I use public facilities where ever I can (Although I got a funny look the other day, walking out of an Asda toilet with a toothbrush stll in my mouth)!!!

 

[tafka]

And that's back to original my question really – do we want to emulate the continental system or is it just too risky trying to get it going in Britain?

Dear Maureen / Tom

I'm only a newbie, I'm afraid, so have no experience thus far of wild camping in the MH. However, as a long-time outdoor enthusiast, I've blagged free overnight stays on foot, bike and car all over Europe and see no reason to stop now that I'm a proper grown up with kids.

Within the various outdoor movements, there are rich histories both of non-compliance with restrictions on movement and access and, latterly, of organised - and successful - lobbying against such restrictions. The Ramblers (formerly Ramblers Association) is a strong group with a lot of clout, as are the BMC (British Mountaineering Council) and SAS (Surfers Against Sewage). Whilst they owe their origins to the anarchy of events like the mass Kinder trespass, they've evolved to become well funded, well informed and - above all - slightly intimidating representative groups. And what they all have in common is that they're essentially single-interest groups: the 'R' is for walkers; BMC for climbers; and SAS for surfers (there are, of course, similar bodies for mountain bikers, fell runners, knitters and dwile-flunkers, but they have a little catching-up to do). This means that they lobby specifically for the interests of their members, and present an open public image: the Ramblers have over 100,000 members, the BMC over 70,000. Who all vote. And many of whom are able to write letters of complaint. Their respective activities are enjoyed by cross-party parliamentary groups, who are therefore well-disposed to their causes. Any motorhoming MPs out there, still willing to come out of the closet after the kicking Margaret Beckett used to get for caravanning?

The prevailing attitude hereabouts seems to be that if you have Aires, then it will mean that unauthorised camping will be outlawed. This can't happen universally, for a number of reasons, but I think we all recognise the general pattern of British Governance when it's realised that a section of the community is getting something for free.

So.

1. If you want the rights and interests of motorhomers to be represented, you need an organisation to do the representing. Where's the Motorhomers' Club? What's to stop its founding? Why would anybody think that the CC would be a reasonable body to represent our interests?
2. If people are unwilling to pay the current proposed fees, then the respective councils need to be made aware. Not through angry individuals, writing in orange crayon, but through trustworthy and measured individuals, acquainted with basic legislation and rights. Preferably from a representative organisation. Having said that, any motorhomers not willing to go to Fylde could do worse than POLITELY letting the council know that they won't be visiting.
3. Where the prevailing legal system has failed to properly define both rights and offences for any activity, laws are changed either by debate in parliament or by case law, based on outcomes of legal proceedings. If people feel that they have rights which are being denied to them, then they may need to prove their case by challenging the system and accepting possible consequences. Google Benny Rothman for an example.

I think you've opened up a great debate, which should be explored properly; arguing over the acceptable fee for a car park space might be avoiding the bigger picture. The provision of Aires by councils affords the motorhoming community a great opportunity to properly engage with planning - a council with a car park and a budget deficit might not actually understand what its target users require unless it's properly informed.

Hope this one rolls on.

tafka

 

[maureenandtom]

Hi tafka,

I don't think we have the capacity for anything organised but, given the proper leader (?) who knows?

I'd love to have your comments on these two closely related threads:

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/18706-wild-camping-news.html

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/15445-no-overnight-parking-signs.html

I've tried the confrontation route and, generally, we do not like confronting authority because we're frightened of how they will retaliate. Now I'm wondering about the persuasion route and I'm coming round to thinking we don't like that either.

 

[barryd]

If I see a no overnighting sign I wont stay there. Regardless of if its legal or not and most are not unless they have the byelaws written on the back or bottom of the sign somebody doesnt want you there and I want to feel relaxed when Im away in the van so I will move on.

 

[wints]

Im sure I saw a thread somewhere where someone had taken a photo of the sign but I cant find it now. Cant remember which forum it was either. And I saw a council comment pretty much saying what I said above.

It was me. See the thread attached.
Don't know if anyone has been to see if the sign has been changed yet.


Forums | Out and About Live

regards

Allen

 

[tafka]

Hi tafka,

I don't think we have the capacity for anything organised but, given the proper leader (?) who knows?

I'd love to have your comments on these two closely related threads

I've had a look at these threads, and on the whole I'm also of the 'let sleeping dogs lie' argument. So the less noise and engagement coming from the MH community, the better. Someone put it fairly succinctly in suggesting that councils were putting up these signs, knowing them to be unenforceable, as a tacit acceptance of responsible overnighting whilst being seen to be 'doing' something. Making a fuss about this without the backing of a representative body can only lead to a system being introduced which is enforced, with obvious results.

However, if councils are taking it on themselves to effectively provide aires, a failure to engage by the MH community just means that whatever we get, it won't be what we want. Local politicians have seen a way to make money at a time when it's most needed, and they're really not going to give up on it. And why should they?

tafka

 

[fairytooth]

The idea of having an interest group with lobbying power seems very appealing but in truth we are a disparate group and we have our own personal ideas of what amounts to the kind of wild camping that suits. The debate here is interesting but hardly forms a consensus, let's be honest.

At the end of the day, councils want to (as they see it) solve the problem of unwanted motor homes littering up their pretty tourist traps. Providing parking facilities of some description demonstrates to their locals that they are doing something. Let's not run away with the idea there is any form of altruism here.

So where does this leave us? Well, our market forces will determine whether the concept of UK Aires can be successful, or not. If we are not prepared to pay high prices for less facilities than a CL provides why would we go there? We vote with our 'wheels'.

In France where all this happens on a much larger scale we see that councils (Mairies) charge whatever they can get away with. If the resort is popular enough they will extract money but French motor homers are a canny lot and, like us, will go where the best solution lies. If the Aire is unused the fee must drop until a balance is reached. Of course in practice it is often the other way - the price creeps up until we stop going there and find another place.

UK councils do not have motor homers interests at heart. Because it is simply seen as another way to generate revenue and get us away from prime locations they will be highly unlikely to ever accommodate our needs properly. In other words, they will not achieve the necessary balance between obtaining revenue AND providing a satisfactory motor home parking facility.

We should refuse to use these new 'Aires' until they do meet our requirements.

 

[maureenandtom]

That's right of course. I'm now inclined to let the negotiation with Scarborough drop away but I was going to base my next step on precisely what I hoped to learn here.

I was going to ask how they'd determined the fee of £10 (although I still don't know whether that is for 24 hours or overnght with a daytime fee too). Then I was going to tell them what my own limited market research had found a willingness to go along with a 24 hr fee of £10 or a nighttime fee of £5 and try to impress on them that it will be in everybody's interest to have the scheme a success. A wrong determination of the fee will almost guarantee it to be a failure. I'm not unaware that this may be their intention all along - show they tried but recalcitrant motorhomers wouldn't cooperate with their well-meaning efforts but if I can show them that failure might be their fault . . . Why do they want it to fail . . .? etc.

We really don't trust our government, do we? Local or Central.

But if we really don't want Aires; if we just like complaining about why they can do it elsewhere but we can't do it here; then why bother at all?

 

[fairytooth]

Don't be too down hearted. Yes, many of us will always take the free option. I think that is normal human nature.

IF Scarborough want to make a success of the scheme it is essential they get the pricing and location right to begin with. While the free option is probably asking too much, they should aim low if they really want to make it attractive AND provide some facilities too. In other words try to follow the French examples with water provision and drainage. And we all KNOW they will be watching to see if the urban myth of tipping POO down a drain is really true.

But there is a lot of scepticism I feel because of their earlier actions/words, not least of all by the Councillor with the vested interest in camp sites. Yes, he has become famous (infamous that is) amongst motor homers. So there is a hearts and minds battle to be won IF they really care.

 

[f1dddler]

Free Aires

As a matter of interest Hawick, which is a town in the Scottish Borders, has introduced a " designated area" for camper vans in a large car park just off the town centre. No EHU or facilities but parking is free. The intention is to attract custom to the town. I live in the Borders and the majority of car parks are free and as an ex policeman know first hand that campervans parked overnight and not causing a nuisance or obstruction are of no interest to the local plod or anyone else for that matter. Here's hoping more towns in our area see the benefits and pass it on to other local authorities.