advice : on no overnight sleeping and caravans signs

[justdoitviv]

pictures request

I came across this thread and have read a lot of the pages ... not all ! I get the idea that this will not get sorted/ changed .. unless we try approaching to start with campsite owners maybe ! Asking / suggesting that if they feel they are losing out with motorhomes that if they say offer a refresh/top up services of maybe £5 ! Where we can drop toilets, and grey water and top up again.
My hubby and me like to - sometimes visit a town / city do some shopping, a bite and a few drinks then head to our bed. we find a lot of campsites are usually out of town and not a handy walk back. So maybe this way they may feel they are getting some business from us. Im not saying we don't go onto campsites but most of the time we like to free wheel.
Its a pity they don't realise that caravans mostly have to go to them but motorhomes don't always have to.

Also ... these signs that are legal and not is there any chance that a pic could be put on so that we might know what to look for !!

Now I guess this the start the thread up again !

yes I have several pictures..........how do I upload them? Can someone e mail me privately so not to disturb others, and I will post the signs and fines........all illegal. Otherwise if you give me your email address I can sent them to you for you to put on the site. Or else look at andy ********** over night parking ...go to kent...... all those signs are illegal, and some have been removed. The new signs and tickets I got are not on andys site.

 

[justdoitviv]

I tend to agree with you that it is disreputable - and when I was a council leader I refused to sanction any such signs. My point, however, is that it is simply wrong to say they are illegal. You never win an argument by getting your facts wrong.

Further, since we all know those signs are unenforceable, do we really want to push councils into a corner where they use TROs as a first resort rather than a last one? I cannot see that would be of any benefit to us at all. This is not about letting councils get away with something; it is about doing what is likely to benefit us.

Most people don't KNOW that the signs are not enforceable. I certainly have never known.

In one way I agree with the statement you made....it is about doing what is likely to benefit us all. On the other hand I don't. I come from a poor area, with a layby which is popular with overseas, and tourists from other areas in the uk. Just a few motorhomes......But we need the tourism, like every other area.

If I am in the layby, motorhomers always stop to ask if its ok to stop the night or two. If I was not in the layby to tell them yes its ok, they would move on now that the no overnight camping signs were erected. (these have now been removed in 1 layby ).

I think you will find most people do not know an enforceable sign or not.

 

[justdoitviv]

basis

Were you told to move on by an official (as opposed to an angry member of the public or self-appointed guardian) and is there a TRO/by-law in force at this spot? If the answer to the former is yes and to the latter is no then it would be the first example I have heard of and I would be very interested to hear on what basis they thought you should move.

well I got the letter, and pictures but don't know how to put them on here

 

[justdoitviv]

pictures

think my daughter managed to do it.
This is for norman bay

 

[John H]

Most people don't KNOW that the signs are not enforceable. I certainly have never known.

In one way I agree with the statement you made....it is about doing what is likely to benefit us all. On the other hand I don't. I come from a poor area, with a layby which is popular with overseas, and tourists from other areas in the uk. Just a few motorhomes......But we need the tourism, like every other area.

If I am in the layby, motorhomers always stop to ask if its ok to stop the night or two. If I was not in the layby to tell them yes its ok, they would move on now that the no overnight camping signs were erected. (these have now been removed in 1 layby ).

I think you will find most people do not know an enforceable sign or not.

This is a difficult one. You could say that people should know the Highway Code and thus what signs are official and enforceable but I agree that, although we should all know, many of us don't. On the other hand, those of us who acquaint ourselves with which are which will have more spots to stop at than those who don't. The unenforceable signs are there as a deterrent and if some people follow them and don't stop they have worked. Thus there is less pressure on the council to impose enforceable signs. If we all ignore them then that pressure returns. It is a selfish argument but I suppose that it applies to many situations - those who take the trouble to find out get the greatest choice. But if we all found out then councils might be forced down the official route and there will thus be fewer spots for all.

Ideally, we need to approach councils with positive proposals. A few can see the advantages of allowing us to stop but they are few at the moment. We may get a few more to see it our way by stressing the win-win situation but I can't see us doing it by aggressive tactics - not that I'm suggesting your tactics are aggressive. If the by-law that the issuing authority is working under proves to be not properly established then you have every right to question it.

 

[John H]

think my daughter managed to do it.
This is for norman bay

On the face of it that looks fairly comprehensive. There does appear to be a by-law, the signs are clear, a warning notice was first issued and then a notice of intent to take legal proceedings was issued. To make any further comment, you would need to read the full by-law and look into the procedure by which it was established. Thus, it may be possible to find a technical loophole but I wouldn't bank on it. You could, for example, argue that you were not camped but parked and see what happens but English law is based on the principle of what a reasonable person might be expected to conclude in those circumstances and it might well be decided that a reasonable person would conclude that anyone in a motorhome at 3am is likely to be in bed! Sorry not to be more helpful but please keep us posted. I may not be able to respond quickly in future because we are just about to go on our travels and don't know when we will have reception but I would be very interested in how this pans out.

Ps I think I must be losing it - just noticed that the notice is an A4 sheet taped to a post! That is hardly properly displayed and I believe you said earlier that it wasn't there when you parked up. This is your strongest defence. If you challenge it then do so on that basis. I know it is tempting to fire off in all directions but it is always best to choose one or two strong points and stick to them. If the notice wasn't there when you parked then how would you be expected to know there was a by-law? The tape suggests it was put up in a hurry - and that tape looks fairly new to me in the picture. Put doubt into the minds of the court and you may have a good chance of beating it.

 

[Tow Itch]

With respect to what unladen weight is. I did small piece on towing for the site I moderate on. This is part, a glossary on mass related terms at one point Yougov confused unladen and kerb weight. It then corrected it only for the newer Gov.UK to make the same mistake again.

Glossary of Mass (weight) Related Terms Any hope of a sensible law on towing is lost when those framing it mix up the terms weight and mass but here is a glossary of terms from the NTTA (National Trailer And Towing Association) Any Italics mine.

Unladen Weight (UW)
The weight of the trailer (or towing vehicle) less removable optional equipment and load but what is quoted may or may not include aircon, other options and tow bar. If it suits your purpose weigh your car empty and deduct the fuel load
Gross Weight
The total weight of the trailer (or towing vehicle) and load Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or Gross Weight Mass (GWM) The total weight of the towing vehicle and its load Never heard of GWM but is also the same as Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
Maximum Gross Weight (MGW)
The maximum figure set by the manufacturer for the gross weight. This will normally be the technically permissible maximum based on the carrying capacity of the tyres, axles, coupling, suspension and chassis but may have been adjusted downwards for commercial reasons
Technically Permissible Maximum Weight MTPM is usually applied to to caravans where the notional maximum for the chassis is varied on different models.
The technically permissible maximum based on the capacity of the tyres, axles, coupling, suspension and chassis
Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
As maximum gross weight above. The latest EC term as used in the Driver Licensing Regulations
Gross Train Weight (GTW )
The maximum allowable combined weight (combined MAM) of the towing vehicle and trailer as set by the towing vehicle manufacturer
Payload:
The difference between the gross weight of the trailer and its unladen weight, i.e. The load carrying capacity
Kerb Weight/Kerbside Weight
The weight of the towing vehicle (without payload), including all fluids required for operation (95/48/EEC: Vehicle, 90% full tank, 68kg driver and 7kg luggage.) not always been defined and you may find your handbook lists a figure derived differently see also unladen weight wrt accessories

Unladen weights need checking if not using a base vehicle if having one value printed and a different actual use whichever suits. What is the legal definition of kerbweight???????

 

[zantiagreen]

legal definition of seashore

I note the bye-law states you're not allowed to camp on the seashore.



Something was ringing bells in my head about this definition so i looked it up and sure enough the legal definition of seashore is :idea-007::

The seashore (which is synonymous with foreshore) is the area between the mean high water mark and the mean low water mark.

Therefore if you are parked on the road or any land above the high water mark then you are not breaking the bye-law - although I am sure that this is not what the writers of the bye-law has intended. They probably meant to say seafront!
Now I for one, wouldn't dream of camping on the seashore for fear of getting stuck as the tide came in. Leave me the road and that'll do me

 

[Spav]

They would have to take you to a weighbridge, unload you then weigh you.
Manufacturers do not know what bodywork will be built on to the bare chassis so are unable to put the tare weight on the plate.

 

[Deleted member 967]

My 1992 Hymer S700 came with paperwork showing the un-laden weight of the vehicle as it left the factory with factory fitted accessories listed as being included. Anything else added would need to be added to this to obtain the un-laden weight at any particular time. The makers stated the max un-laden weight would be 3600kg I weighed mine after I bought it and it weighed in at 3380kg with all of my accessories added. The MPGVW is 4600kg or 5900kg max train weight.

 

[Spav]

My 1992 Hymer S700 came with paperwork showing the un-laden weight of the vehicle as it left the factory with factory fitted accessories listed as being included. Anything else added would need to be added to this to obtain the un-laden weight at any particular time. The makers stated the max un-laden weight would be 3600kg I weighed mine after I bought it and it weighed in at 3380kg with all of my accessories added. The MPGVW is 4600kg or 5900kg max train weight.

There is no max unladen weight, given that it is not above the max laden weight, the unladen weight is what it is. The only max is the legal max gross weight and or train weight.
My van's brochure states the ex factory tare weight, 2,800 kg if I remember correctly, and that will do the police unless they are willing to unload everything including the toilet waste themselves to weigh it.

 

[Squeegee]

Don't you take spanners with you when you are out and about?

Squeegee

 

[Deleted member 967]

There is no max unladen weight, given that it is not above the max laden weight, the unladen weight is what it is. The only max is the legal max gross weight and or train weight.
My van's brochure states the ex factory tare weight, 2,800 kg if I remember correctly, and that will do the police unless they are willing to unload everything including the toilet waste themselves to weigh it.

I agre with your comment but I can only go by the statement in the Hymer specifications which states "Maximum un-laden weight"

Back to the OP

In Entrick v Carrington(1765) Lord Camden ruled, as later became viewed as a general principle, that:
1.) The state may do nothing but that which is expressly authorised by law,
2.) while the individual may do anything but that which is forbidden by law.
The judgment established the limits of executive power in English law: the state can only act lawfully in a manner prescribed by statute or common law.

So any government body and that includes local authorities, no matter how well intentioned, can only do what is expressly authorised by law.

Only signs that are prescribed in the TSGDR or have received specific approval from the Secretary of state can be displayed on the public highway. The signs have to be clearly displayed, so dirty or damaged signs do not satisfy the regulations. Without the signs no regulation can be applied.

I listed the signs that have been prescribed or approved in a previous post.

The individual may do anything but that which is forbidden by law. If there is no law banning overnight parking then you can stay there. That said who would want to stay where they were not welcome.

 

[Deleted member 967]

Hi David

Its all a hang over from the Road Traffic Act 1984/1988/1992 where all weights were given in hundredweights (cwt) unladen. That goes back to vehicles (vans) being classified as 30cwt, 10cwt etc.

Most TRO still refer to these Acts and give car park weight limits as cwt sometimes with a metric equivalent. ie. 30cwt 1540kg.

A lot of car parks are limited to 1540kg some at 2000kg and some at 3050kg. No a lot of vehicles should be getting tickets for being overweight but it is only campoervans that seem to be being picked out with these weight limits. A Land Rover Discovery is over 2750kg.

 

[Spav]

I agre with your comment but I can only go by the statement in the Hymer specifications which states "Maximum un-laden weight"

Back to the OP

In Entrick v Carrington(1765) Lord Camden ruled, as later became viewed as a general principle, that:
1.) The state may do nothing but that which is expressly authorised by law,
2.) while the individual may do anything but that which is forbidden by law.
The judgment established the limits of executive power in English law: the state can only act lawfully in a manner prescribed by statute or common law.

So any government body and that includes local authorities, no matter how well intentioned, can only do what is expressly authorised by law.

Only signs that are prescribed in the TSGDR or have received specific approval from the Secretary of state can be displayed on the public highway. The signs have to be clearly displayed, so dirty or damaged signs do not satisfy the regulations. Without the signs no regulation can be applied.

I listed the signs that have been prescribed or approved in a previous post.

The individual may do anything but that which is forbidden by law. If there is no law banning overnight parking then you can stay there. That said who would want to stay where they were not welcome.

Perhaps the weight plate goes on regardless of the different layous on offer with each model?
One weight fits all type of thing, not very Germanic really.
My one gives the tire weight for each layout, but the chances are any trouble will be for alleged speeding through a camera and then it would be on them to find out the tire weight.
Myself, I would just go to court and claim expenses off them and have a nice wee jolly at their expense.

 

[John H]

I note the bye-law states you're not allowed to camp on the seashore.



Something was ringing bells in my head about this definition so i looked it up and sure enough the legal definition of seashore is :idea-007::

The seashore (which is synonymous with foreshore) is the area between the mean high water mark and the mean low water mark.

Therefore if you are parked on the road or any land above the high water mark then you are not breaking the bye-law - although I am sure that this is not what the writers of the bye-law has intended. They probably meant to say seafront!
Now I for one, wouldn't dream of camping on the seashore for fear of getting stuck as the tide came in. Leave me the road and that'll do me

I think you'll find that there is no rigid legal definition of "seashore" and it will depend on how the by-law is drafted.