A costly battery Boo-Boo ?

[Duetto 1999]

I am hoping someone can help with this ---

Over the Bank Holiday weekend and in eager anticipation of our impending autumn/early winter trip away (12 weeks in France and Spain) I decided it was high time to upgrade the leisure batteries in our 2011 Chausson Flash S2 motorhome based on a Fiat Ducato 130 MultiJet.
The existing mis-matched (as supplied by dealer) "pair" of 110Ah lead acid batteries to be replaced by two new 160Ah Expedition Plus Carbon Gel batteries as supplied by Alpha.

The pair of batteries arrived today.

That got me thinking again about fitting them. I knew the existing Nord NE 143-P charger (EHU) has a gel battery charge setting that suits the batteries and I also knew that the existing Votronic Solar Controller can be set to a suitable gel setting. HOWEVER, and this is perhaps where I have made a seriously expensive Boo-Boo, I did not consider the battery being charged by the vehicle's alternator - I know, I know, both impulsive and dim! Could this be deleterious to the longevity and health of my new batteries? If so, is there a solution?

It may be relevant to know that the electrical system control and monitor panel is a NE 216

I hope I have given sufficient information - if not and you are kindly inclined to help, please ask.
Thanks in advance.

 

[trevskoda]

Dont think you will have much bother if the alt is around 70/90amps, thing is you will in fact be charging 3 bateries at close to 25ah or 30ah, so if you think it to much leave something on, but to be honest i dont see to much bother, wildbus is the man to go through this with you, l carbon is where im going next and have the same set up as you.

 

[colinm]

That would depend on how your battery is wired, AFAIK my Globecar charges the leisure battery via the EBL, so if that's set correctly all is fine.

 

[Duetto 1999]

wildbus is the man to go through this with you

I do hope he does - Thanks

 

[merl]

The datasheet says 14.6-14.8v charge and 13.6-13.8v float. To be honest that's closer to AGM rather than Gel so you've got nothing to worry about. Maybe consider setting everything back to AGM but personally I wouldn't sweat, lead carbon isn't particularly critical and I'd sooner leave charge settings on the low side rather than going high because LC doesn't suffer the same degradation when left sitting slightly undercharged as other lead acid types

 

[Duetto 1999]

That would depend on how your battery is wired, AFAIK my Globecar charges the leisure battery via the EBL, so if that's set correctly all is fine.

That is possibly correct but WAY beyond my comprehension - Thanks anyway.

 

[wildebus]

Firstly, congratulations on choosing a very good battery. I have the 100Ah version in my Motorhome (x 3. the 160Ah version was not around at the time) and I have installed quite a few 100Ah and 160Ah versions in other vans and everyone with them has been very happy with them I believe.

I wouldn't worry about the charging, it will be fine.

 

[Duetto 1999]

Firstly, congratulations on choosing a very good battery. I have the 100Ah version in my Motorhome (x 3. the 160Ah version was not around at the time) and I have installed quite a few 100Ah and 160Ah versions in other vans and everyone with them has been very happy with them I believe.

I wouldn't worry about the charging, it will be fine.

Brilliant - Thanks - Happy days!

 

[trevskoda]

Feck i was right for once LOL.

 

[Martin P]

Feck i was right for once LOL.

Had to happen sooner or later Trev!

 

[Canalsman]

@trevskoda

Law of averages and all that!

Had to happen eventually...

 

[Fisherman]

Feck i was right for once LOL.

Every dog has its day Trev

 

[Duetto 1999]

BTW - I have a "pair" of lead acid batteries looking for a good home - Somerset way - anybody interested let me know

 

[trevskoda]

BTW - I have a "pair" of lead acid batteries looking for a good home - Somerset way - anybody interested let me know

Will they be served on a plate, ok im of to my cell now.

 

[gasgas]

So now I had to go away and find out what carbon gel batteries are. Just as I was starting to contemplate a lithium ion one (s). I have watched videos of scores of fires in EVs going up in Very toxic smoke, they are not extinguishable as they generate their own oxygen in the combustion process. I quickly add that these are of LiOn batteries, I believe that LiFPo or something like that are not thus prone.
I had a look at the www of that expedition plus carbon gel battery, I see it weighs 41.5kg so I'll have to compare that and the price against the LiFpo whateveritis. I guess the carbon ones weigh the same as lead acid, is that right?
I recently wired two 110ah lead acid LB batteries in parallel in my wagon, and when running the engine the feed cables from the alternator to the batteries blows the 40A fuse. This is after some period of draining the batteries when parked up. I have a 2000w / 3000w peak inverter (modified sine wave, to be replaced obviously) which does power the kettle (200W - not 2000W) And before blowing the fuse, the ?4mm or is it ?6mm cables get warm. The fuse doesn't immediately blow so presumably what's happening is the batteries get low, then the engine starts and the alternator provides 50A to charge the two batteries in parallel. The max charging rate of the carbon battery is 43.5A which probably wouldn't blow a 40A fuse.(Years ago in a R&D lab I did some testing of currents that fuses blow at, and they normally accept quite a higher current rate.)

What are the advantages of a carbon gel battery over a lithium one? I have a 200w solar panel and Epever MPPT controller. I don't know if the controller has a setting for carbon gel.

 

[Duetto 1999]

@gasgas don't ask me - I think I just got lucky choosing carbon gel although I did consider usage when I chose the batteries. That having been said, with the @wildebus seal of approval I feel vindicated and in clover (is that possible?). For me the choice boiled down to simplicity - Lixxx type batteries seem to me to require a lot of upstream upgrading when one has an older van as I have.

 

[merl]

In order you posted the questions:-
lithium batteries used for MHs is lifepo4, it's not fiery and extremely safe
The carbon is basically a tweak to a lead acid chemistry. It improves the cyclic properties and also greatly reduces sulphation that kills conventional LA batteries when they spend time sitting at less than full charge. The weight is similar.
Most reasonably modern alternators ( discounting smart types) can deliver well over 100A, but the actual charge current from alternator to battery will be governed by ohms law which is volts V( alternator voltage minus battery voltage) divided by resistance R( wiring resistance between alternator and battery) . Slight differences in alternator voltage( it's not ALWAYS 14.4v) and the fact that the battery voltage will vary massively depending on how deeply the battery has been discharged, how old it is and it's chemistry means the V ( voltage) isn't a constant. The R part ( resistance) varies massively too depending on cable gauge, length, fuses, relays, connectors etc. Actual charge current is therefore hard to predict but WILL be governed by the above.
The advantage of a carbon battery over lithium is ease of installation and cost, every other parameter lithium wins.
Gel batteries tend to have slightly lower voltage settings than other LA types, carbon often slightly higher, thus carbon gel settings are actually about the same as lead acid and can be accommodated easily by charge systems.

 

[Duetto 1999]

In order you posted the questions:-
lithium batteries used for MHs is lifepo4, it's not fiery and extremely safe
The carbon is basically a tweak to a lead acid chemistry. It improves the cyclic properties and also greatly reduces sulphation that kills conventional LA batteries when they spend time sitting at less than full charge. The weight is similar.
Most reasonably modern alternators ( discounting smart types) can deliver well over 100A, but the actual charge current from alternator to battery will be governed by ohms law which is volts V( alternator voltage minus battery voltage) divided by resistance R( wiring resistance between alternator and battery) . Slight differences in alternator voltage( it's not ALWAYS 14.4v) and the fact that the battery voltage will vary massively depending on how deeply the battery has been discharged, how old it is and it's chemistry means the V ( voltage) isn't a constant. The R part ( resistance) varies massively too depending on cable gauge, length, fuses, relays, connectors etc. Actual charge current is therefore hard to predict but WILL be governed by the above.
The advantage of a carbon battery over lithium is ease of installation and cost, every other parameter lithium wins.
Gel batteries tend to have slightly lower voltage settings than other LA types, carbon often slightly higher, thus carbon gel settings are actually about the same as lead acid and can be accommodated easily by charge systems.

Exactly right - precisely what I thought - NOT! Precisely what I should have thought, YEA!

 

[wildebus]

In order you posted the questions:-
lithium batteries used for MHs is lifepo4, it's not fiery and extremely safe
The carbon is basically a tweak to a lead acid chemistry. It improves the cyclic properties and also greatly reduces sulphation that kills conventional LA batteries when they spend time sitting at less than full charge. The weight is similar.
Most reasonably modern alternators ( discounting smart types) can deliver well over 100A, but the actual charge current from alternator to battery will be governed by ohms law which is volts V( alternator voltage minus battery voltage) divided by resistance R( wiring resistance between alternator and battery) . Slight differences in alternator voltage( it's not ALWAYS 14.4v) and the fact that the battery voltage will vary massively depending on how deeply the battery has been discharged, how old it is and it's chemistry means the V ( voltage) isn't a constant. The R part ( resistance) varies massively too depending on cable gauge, length, fuses, relays, connectors etc. Actual charge current is therefore hard to predict but WILL be governed by the above.
The advantage of a carbon battery over lithium is ease of installation and cost, every other parameter lithium wins.

So if you use BOTH together, you get the best of both worlds
As one of my customers who updated his canal boat battery told me last week .... "Hi David, the hybrid battery system that you recommend is working like a dream ..."

Gel batteries tend to have slightly lower voltage settings than other LA types, carbon often slightly higher, thus carbon gel settings are actually about the same as lead acid and can be accommodated easily by charge systems.

 

[gasgas]

thanks Merl, I do like the look of your valve amplifier. I was building amps and radios in my mid teens, and have spent most of my working life with electronics, a lot of it in R&D so I know all about ohm's law. I guess my batteries must be getting quite discharged for them to take over 40A. I do intend to upgrade (i.e. make the system work properly) after I have got rid of the more essential jobs like water leaks, re-attaching the roof window - I've made a list somewhere! I haven't found out what exactly is causing the 40A fuse to blow, but it does feed the supply from the alternator to the batteries, I am sure it goes nowhere else. The two batteries are connected via a 20A fuse, which doesn't blow. I have checked both battery voltages and they are good.
More work needed . . . . . .