£30 a night no facilities what planet are they on

[Debroos]

Unfortunately there will be people willing to pay that much.

 

[barge1914]

Text of letter I sent to Devon councillors earlier on this subject…..


Motor Caravan Overnight Parking in East Devon

Following complaints from local caravan and holiday park operators your council has proposed to raise the charge for motor caravans to park overnight from £11 to £30 to avoid competing with such businesses.
Competition and Markets Authority Guidance to Councils requires that councils do not inhibit competition, and that they do not discriminate against new or alternative businesses in favour of existing businesses. But where they offer services themselves they should have regard to the effect of such services on surrounding comparable businesses.

If they were themselves to operate a four-star campsite with all the same facilities as comparable private sites they would need to have regard to the effect on other such businesses in their pricing. But they do not.

Basic parking for touring motor caravans does not compete with caravan parks or campsites. It is a totally different market and business model catering for the needs of a different category of customer.

The owners of touring motor caravans have been writing for some time to caravan site owners in the UK, and to the two large camping and caravanning organisations to which many of them belong to request provision of basic overnight parking facilities and the opportunity to pay to use service facilities only as and when they need them. Numerous caravan sites in Europe operate such a facility. Hardly any of this correspondence ever receives a reply, and the few replies they do get completely reject the suggestions as not being their market or business model. That is THEIR CHOICE. The increasing pattern of caravan and holiday parks installing glamping pods, static caravans, tepees and huts on wheels thus eroding touring capacity shows which way they see their market going; further and further from the basic level required by tourers.

Caravan and campsite operators therefore have no entitlement to object to the existence of a different market or standard of provision that they refuse to cater for. And councils have no obligation to listen to them, in fact the contrary. If councils competed with private businesses operating basic motor caravan parking then it would be a different matter. A small number of private car parks in the West Country do offer overnight parking, generally in the region of £10, there appears to be no adverse competition there.

We encounter councillors all around the country saying they are having their ears bent by caravan site owners every time they see a motor caravan elsewhere other than on their sites, even at times when the campsites are stuffed to the gills and booked up months in advance for the whole season.

If the council proposed to coerce B&B owners to close or raise their prices to match those of 4 star hotels to avoid competition imagine the hostility and ridicule they would receive. Why should owners of motor caravans be selected for more prejudicial treatment?

Sometimes motor caravan owners do use caravan sites, but out of CHOICE; when they want to stay longer, have a holiday in one place, set up camp with awnings, table and chairs, bbq etc.

However the majority of motor caravan owners pay a premium for a self contained motor caravan as it allows them the freedom to tour. A recent survey showed that 91% of owners would use Aires in the UK and 82% normally tour all year, including in winter when most campsites are closed or unsuitable. The greater proportion of all-year tourers are relatively elderly and need easy access on foot to the town, for them such a parking arrangement is ideal, but at £30 a night out of a stretched pension they would not even visit the town, or if such prices were to become common the region.

A touring self-contained motor caravan that has full on-board facilities does not want or need a campsite; they just need a parking place and access to services once every 3-6 days, for which they will gladly pay a REASONABLE price. Paying the price of a campsite for a basic parking space is not reasonable, so what is?

There are more than 13000 Aires in western European countries. They exist alongside the many more thousands of campsites, without complaints. What do they charge?

Spaces shared or designated in mixed car-park: €0-5

Basic Aire: segregated parking area for motor caravans €5-8 (typical also for Aires at campsites)

Quality Aire: individual separated bays for motor caravans €5-12

Premium Aire: secure, barrier controlled, landscaped Aire €12-15

Where services are provided they are paid for separately and only when needed, disposal free to encourage proper disposal, water is charged for: typically €0.5 to 3. Electricity €0.5 -1 per kw.

Premium locations in the centre of major cities, National Parks, on the beach at famous seaside resorts etc. may charge up to €5 more than these prices. Rates of fully serviced Aires at some ski resorts may average €25 during the ski season (and free off-season), but these are providing fully frost-proof services. It should be noted that where premium prices are charged there are usually less expensive alternatives available only a few miles away.

There are as yet some 60+ motor caravan Aires in the UK, ranging in price from £3-15.

These prices tend to suggest that what is being charged at the moment for basic overnight parking in your town is already reasonable. An increase to £15 for basic parking in a nice location with a good outlook may be tolerable, beyond that you are starting to drive visitors away.

The people you deter will not be going to your caravan parks, as pointed out above they don’t need or want them. They will simply go somewhere else where they are more welcome. The money they spend in pubs, restaurants and shops will be spent in someone else’s pubs, restaurants and shops.

A recent survey in UK showed motor caravan owners spend on average £47 per day locally in addition to parking/ camping charges and fuel. A much larger survey in Europe established a figure of €55, so similar. However if they have to pay excessively to stay what they spend on parking will reduce their spending in other local businesses.

Normally many thousands of motor caravanners flee to Europe for months every year where they know they are welcome and will be catered for, at reasonable cost, never needing to book ahead, and not being penalised for their choice of transport, even in normal daytime car parks. I have spoken, on my travels, with many European motor caravan owners, and have recently been in touch with a number of motor caravan clubs in France, Belgium, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and Spain (I speak 4 European languages). Why don’t they visit England I ask; for exactly the same reason Brits go to Europe, to avoid the lack of proper facilities for touring motor caravans, the overpriced fully booked campsites and the prejudicial official hostility they expect to receive here. Motor caravan travel in Europe is generally carefree and relaxed, in England full of worry and anxiety, it’s a relief to cross the channel…. or to go to Scotland.
It may not have escaped the notice of some of your fellow councillors that ****** restrictions may mean more time spent in the UK. This will drive need for more CAPACITY in peak seasons to accommodate motor caravans, but if it results in exploitative hiking of prices it will just lead to more conflict and hostility and waste of Police time such as we saw in the last Staycation as people try to avoid prohibitively priced locations.

At £30 to park will I visit East Devon? Sadly no.

I am a member of the leadership team of CAMpRA (Campaign for Real Aires, campaigning for provision of proper facilities for motor caravans in the UK). I attach a copy of a document Emergency Staycation Recovery Plan that I wrote and which we have circulated to a number of councils that were overwhelmed in the 2020 Staycation. Generally it has been received in the good spirit that was intended, it was meant to be a helpful. Does your council have a constructive strategy? Some such as the Lake District National Park and the Cumbrian west coastal boroughs are seriously working on one to find ways of increasing capacity and welcoming motor caravan visitors when restrictions are lifted. Our input there has been appreciated, and we continue to assist.



Regards

 

[Debroos]

Text of letter I sent to Devon councillors earlier on this subject…..


Motor Caravan Overnight Parking in East Devon

Following complaints from local caravan and holiday park operators your council has proposed to raise the charge for motor caravans to park overnight from £11 to £30 to avoid competing with such businesses.
Competition and Markets Authority Guidance to Councils requires that councils do not inhibit competition, and that they do not discriminate against new or alternative businesses in favour of existing businesses. But where they offer services themselves they should have regard to the effect of such services on surrounding comparable businesses.

If they were themselves to operate a four-star campsite with all the same facilities as comparable private sites they would need to have regard to the effect on other such businesses in their pricing. But they do not.

Basic parking for touring motor caravans does not compete with caravan parks or campsites. It is a totally different market and business model catering for the needs of a different category of customer.

The owners of touring motor caravans have been writing for some time to caravan site owners in the UK, and to the two large camping and caravanning organisations to which many of them belong to request provision of basic overnight parking facilities and the opportunity to pay to use service facilities only as and when they need them. Numerous caravan sites in Europe operate such a facility. Hardly any of this correspondence ever receives a reply, and the few replies they do get completely reject the suggestions as not being their market or business model. That is THEIR CHOICE. The increasing pattern of caravan and holiday parks installing glamping pods, static caravans, tepees and huts on wheels thus eroding touring capacity shows which way they see their market going; further and further from the basic level required by tourers.

Caravan and campsite operators therefore have no entitlement to object to the existence of a different market or standard of provision that they refuse to cater for. And councils have no obligation to listen to them, in fact the contrary. If councils competed with private businesses operating basic motor caravan parking then it would be a different matter. A small number of private car parks in the West Country do offer overnight parking, generally in the region of £10, there appears to be no adverse competition there.

We encounter councillors all around the country saying they are having their ears bent by caravan site owners every time they see a motor caravan elsewhere other than on their sites, even at times when the campsites are stuffed to the gills and booked up months in advance for the whole season.

If the council proposed to coerce B&B owners to close or raise their prices to match those of 4 star hotels to avoid competition imagine the hostility and ridicule they would receive. Why should owners of motor caravans be selected for more prejudicial treatment?

Sometimes motor caravan owners do use caravan sites, but out of CHOICE; when they want to stay longer, have a holiday in one place, set up camp with awnings, table and chairs, bbq etc.

However the majority of motor caravan owners pay a premium for a self contained motor caravan as it allows them the freedom to tour. A recent survey showed that 91% of owners would use Aires in the UK and 82% normally tour all year, including in winter when most campsites are closed or unsuitable. The greater proportion of all-year tourers are relatively elderly and need easy access on foot to the town, for them such a parking arrangement is ideal, but at £30 a night out of a stretched pension they would not even visit the town, or if such prices were to become common the region.

A touring self-contained motor caravan that has full on-board facilities does not want or need a campsite; they just need a parking place and access to services once every 3-6 days, for which they will gladly pay a REASONABLE price. Paying the price of a campsite for a basic parking space is not reasonable, so what is?

There are more than 13000 Aires in western European countries. They exist alongside the many more thousands of campsites, without complaints. What do they charge?

Spaces shared or designated in mixed car-park: €0-5

Basic Aire: segregated parking area for motor caravans €5-8 (typical also for Aires at campsites)

Quality Aire: individual separated bays for motor caravans €5-12

Premium Aire: secure, barrier controlled, landscaped Aire €12-15

Where services are provided they are paid for separately and only when needed, disposal free to encourage proper disposal, water is charged for: typically €0.5 to 3. Electricity €0.5 -1 per kw.

Premium locations in the centre of major cities, National Parks, on the beach at famous seaside resorts etc. may charge up to €5 more than these prices. Rates of fully serviced Aires at some ski resorts may average €25 during the ski season (and free off-season), but these are providing fully frost-proof services. It should be noted that where premium prices are charged there are usually less expensive alternatives available only a few miles away.

There are as yet some 60+ motor caravan Aires in the UK, ranging in price from £3-15.

These prices tend to suggest that what is being charged at the moment for basic overnight parking in your town is already reasonable. An increase to £15 for basic parking in a nice location with a good outlook may be tolerable, beyond that you are starting to drive visitors away.

The people you deter will not be going to your caravan parks, as pointed out above they don’t need or want them. They will simply go somewhere else where they are more welcome. The money they spend in pubs, restaurants and shops will be spent in someone else’s pubs, restaurants and shops.

A recent survey in UK showed motor caravan owners spend on average £47 per day locally in addition to parking/ camping charges and fuel. A much larger survey in Europe established a figure of €55, so similar. However if they have to pay excessively to stay what they spend on parking will reduce their spending in other local businesses.

Normally many thousands of motor caravanners flee to Europe for months every year where they know they are welcome and will be catered for, at reasonable cost, never needing to book ahead, and not being penalised for their choice of transport, even in normal daytime car parks. I have spoken, on my travels, with many European motor caravan owners, and have recently been in touch with a number of motor caravan clubs in France, Belgium, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and Spain (I speak 4 European languages). Why don’t they visit England I ask; for exactly the same reason Brits go to Europe, to avoid the lack of proper facilities for touring motor caravans, the overpriced fully booked campsites and the prejudicial official hostility they expect to receive here. Motor caravan travel in Europe is generally carefree and relaxed, in England full of worry and anxiety, it’s a relief to cross the channel…. or to go to Scotland.
It may not have escaped the notice of some of your fellow councillors that ****** restrictions may mean more time spent in the UK. This will drive need for more CAPACITY in peak seasons to accommodate motor caravans, but if it results in exploitative hiking of prices it will just lead to more conflict and hostility and waste of Police time such as we saw in the last Staycation as people try to avoid prohibitively priced locations.

At £30 to park will I visit East Devon? Sadly no.

I am a member of the leadership team of CAMpRA (Campaign for Real Aires, campaigning for provision of proper facilities for motor caravans in the UK). I attach a copy of a document Emergency Staycation Recovery Plan that I wrote and which we have circulated to a number of councils that were overwhelmed in the 2020 Staycation. Generally it has been received in the good spirit that was intended, it was meant to be a helpful. Does your council have a constructive strategy? Some such as the Lake District National Park and the Cumbrian west coastal boroughs are seriously working on one to find ways of increasing capacity and welcoming motor caravan visitors when restrictions are lifted. Our input there has been appreciated, and we continue to assist.



Regards

Excellent letter. Did you get a reply?

 

[barge1914]

Excellent letter. Did you get a reply?

Do pigs fly?

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

Regarding the original question, it's planet council, I believe, as a councilor, you are only allowed the use of 2 brain cells when on council business. and upgraded to 3 if you become an MP....

 

[Fisherman]

Do pigs fly?

Yes they do in the minds of some councillors

 

[Scotia]

I know not everyone wants to use sites. But for those that do there are many 5 van sites charging only £10 per night, with EHU and facilities. I can get club sites with hard standing, EHU and full facilities for less than £20. It’s madness to be charging what some are charging, but most places are not ripping us off with extortionate prices and many places have availability.

Perhaps it’s not relevant on a wild camping site, but I’m not convinced regulated car parks are really wild camping (I’m not referring to Findhorn or similar).

Looks wild enough to me. this was the view from the carpark.

 

[Debroos]

Looks wild enough to me. this was the view from the carpark. View attachment 101198

Where is that?

 

[Bigshug]

Regarding the original question, it's planet council, I believe, as a councilor, you are only allowed the use of 2 brain cells when on council business. and upgraded to 3 if you become an MP....

seems there is a lot of MP’s in parliament on fraudulent terms, as most of them don’t have 3 brain cells

 

[caledonia]

Where is that?

That would be telling.

 

[Scotia]

Where is that?

Up by Aviemore.

 

[Pedalman]

Spent nearly five weeks down that way end June into July VWs everywhere like cockroaches every second motor was a VW camper of some sort. But to be honest I never had a problem finding good value campsites around £20 there were pop up sites all over the place from £10 a night. But £30 for street parking with no facilities that’s nuts. Good luck wae that once we can travel abroad. Sounds like there only interest is to get as much as possible for as little as possible pure greed.

Do you think there is something wrong with VW camper vans, why call them cockroaches ? Travelling communities ( which a lot of councils are looking out for) don't normally use such small vans, small VW camper vans are normally genuine responsible campers.

 

[Pedalman]

Text of letter I sent to Devon councillors earlier on this subject…..


Motor Caravan Overnight Parking in East Devon

Following complaints from local caravan and holiday park operators your council has proposed to raise the charge for motor caravans to park overnight from £11 to £30 to avoid competing with such businesses.
Competition and Markets Authority Guidance to Councils requires that councils do not inhibit competition, and that they do not discriminate against new or alternative businesses in favour of existing businesses. But where they offer services themselves they should have regard to the effect of such services on surrounding comparable businesses.

If they were themselves to operate a four-star campsite with all the same facilities as comparable private sites they would need to have regard to the effect on other such businesses in their pricing. But they do not.

Basic parking for touring motor caravans does not compete with caravan parks or campsites. It is a totally different market and business model catering for the needs of a different category of customer.

The owners of touring motor caravans have been writing for some time to caravan site owners in the UK, and to the two large camping and caravanning organisations to which many of them belong to request provision of basic overnight parking facilities and the opportunity to pay to use service facilities only as and when they need them. Numerous caravan sites in Europe operate such a facility. Hardly any of this correspondence ever receives a reply, and the few replies they do get completely reject the suggestions as not being their market or business model. That is THEIR CHOICE. The increasing pattern of caravan and holiday parks installing glamping pods, static caravans, tepees and huts on wheels thus eroding touring capacity shows which way they see their market going; further and further from the basic level required by tourers.

Caravan and campsite operators therefore have no entitlement to object to the existence of a different market or standard of provision that they refuse to cater for. And councils have no obligation to listen to them, in fact the contrary. If councils competed with private businesses operating basic motor caravan parking then it would be a different matter. A small number of private car parks in the West Country do offer overnight parking, generally in the region of £10, there appears to be no adverse competition there.

We encounter councillors all around the country saying they are having their ears bent by caravan site owners every time they see a motor caravan elsewhere other than on their sites, even at times when the campsites are stuffed to the gills and booked up months in advance for the whole season.

If the council proposed to coerce B&B owners to close or raise their prices to match those of 4 star hotels to avoid competition imagine the hostility and ridicule they would receive. Why should owners of motor caravans be selected for more prejudicial treatment?

Sometimes motor caravan owners do use caravan sites, but out of CHOICE; when they want to stay longer, have a holiday in one place, set up camp with awnings, table and chairs, bbq etc.

However the majority of motor caravan owners pay a premium for a self contained motor caravan as it allows them the freedom to tour. A recent survey showed that 91% of owners would use Aires in the UK and 82% normally tour all year, including in winter when most campsites are closed or unsuitable. The greater proportion of all-year tourers are relatively elderly and need easy access on foot to the town, for them such a parking arrangement is ideal, but at £30 a night out of a stretched pension they would not even visit the town, or if such prices were to become common the region.

A touring self-contained motor caravan that has full on-board facilities does not want or need a campsite; they just need a parking place and access to services once every 3-6 days, for which they will gladly pay a REASONABLE price. Paying the price of a campsite for a basic parking space is not reasonable, so what is?

There are more than 13000 Aires in western European countries. They exist alongside the many more thousands of campsites, without complaints. What do they charge?

Spaces shared or designated in mixed car-park: €0-5

Basic Aire: segregated parking area for motor caravans €5-8 (typical also for Aires at campsites)

Quality Aire: individual separated bays for motor caravans €5-12

Premium Aire: secure, barrier controlled, landscaped Aire €12-15

Where services are provided they are paid for separately and only when needed, disposal free to encourage proper disposal, water is charged for: typically €0.5 to 3. Electricity €0.5 -1 per kw.

Premium locations in the centre of major cities, National Parks, on the beach at famous seaside resorts etc. may charge up to €5 more than these prices. Rates of fully serviced Aires at some ski resorts may average €25 during the ski season (and free off-season), but these are providing fully frost-proof services. It should be noted that where premium prices are charged there are usually less expensive alternatives available only a few miles away.

There are as yet some 60+ motor caravan Aires in the UK, ranging in price from £3-15.

These prices tend to suggest that what is being charged at the moment for basic overnight parking in your town is already reasonable. An increase to £15 for basic parking in a nice location with a good outlook may be tolerable, beyond that you are starting to drive visitors away.

The people you deter will not be going to your caravan parks, as pointed out above they don’t need or want them. They will simply go somewhere else where they are more welcome. The money they spend in pubs, restaurants and shops will be spent in someone else’s pubs, restaurants and shops.

A recent survey in UK showed motor caravan owners spend on average £47 per day locally in addition to parking/ camping charges and fuel. A much larger survey in Europe established a figure of €55, so similar. However if they have to pay excessively to stay what they spend on parking will reduce their spending in other local businesses.

Normally many thousands of motor caravanners flee to Europe for months every year where they know they are welcome and will be catered for, at reasonable cost, never needing to book ahead, and not being penalised for their choice of transport, even in normal daytime car parks. I have spoken, on my travels, with many European motor caravan owners, and have recently been in touch with a number of motor caravan clubs in France, Belgium, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and Spain (I speak 4 European languages). Why don’t they visit England I ask; for exactly the same reason Brits go to Europe, to avoid the lack of proper facilities for touring motor caravans, the overpriced fully booked campsites and the prejudicial official hostility they expect to receive here. Motor caravan travel in Europe is generally carefree and relaxed, in England full of worry and anxiety, it’s a relief to cross the channel…. or to go to Scotland.
It may not have escaped the notice of some of your fellow councillors that ****** restrictions may mean more time spent in the UK. This will drive need for more CAPACITY in peak seasons to accommodate motor caravans, but if it results in exploitative hiking of prices it will just lead to more conflict and hostility and waste of Police time such as we saw in the last Staycation as people try to avoid prohibitively priced locations.

At £30 to park will I visit East Devon? Sadly no.

I am a member of the leadership team of CAMpRA (Campaign for Real Aires, campaigning for provision of proper facilities for motor caravans in the UK). I attach a copy of a document Emergency Staycation Recovery Plan that I wrote and which we have circulated to a number of councils that were overwhelmed in the 2020 Staycation. Generally it has been received in the good spirit that was intended, it was meant to be a helpful. Does your council have a constructive strategy? Some such as the Lake District National Park and the Cumbrian west coastal boroughs are seriously working on one to find ways of increasing capacity and welcoming motor caravan visitors when restrictions are lifted. Our input there has been appreciated, and we continue to assist.



Regards

excellent letter and hats off to you for doing something. It needs everyone to send a copy of this letter to councils that are seen to be doing the same, but will that happen ?

 

[Biggarmac]

excellent letter and hats off to you for doing something. It needs everyone to send a copy of this letter to councils that are seen to be doing the same, but will that happen ?

Have a look on www.campra.org.uk to see templates of letters to use as a basis to send to councils and landowners. Things will only change when more of the motorcaravan community become proactive and contact councils themselves. Don't leave it to CAMpRA.

 

[Fisherman]

Have a look on www.campra.org.uk to see templates of letters to use as a basis to send to councils and landowners. Things will only change when more of the motorcaravan community become proactive and contact councils themselves. Don't leave it to CAMpRA.

Could not agree more.
If you see something that’s simply not right complain to the owners.
Email them, phone them, post your email on here for others to see, and use as a template if they wish. Just look a CalMacs latest decision to stop us from queuing in standbye queues for their ferries, or as this thread were councils who have openly condemned us, now see as as cash cows to be ripped off. Even if you don’t want to join Campra, do your own thing when you see what's clearly biased and unfair treatment towards us.

 

[Pedalman]

Unfortunately there will be people willing to pay that much.

Could not agree more.
If you see something that’s simply not right complain to the owners.
Email them, phone them, post your email on here for others to see, and use as a template if they wish. Just look a CalMacs latest decision to stop us from queuing in standbye queues for their ferries, or as this thread were councils who have openly condemned us, now see as as cash cows to be ripped off. Even if you don’t want to join Campra, do your own thing when you see what's clearly biased and unfair treatment towards us.

Well said, we need to be pro active complainers. I suggested a few weeks ago that we should all have a campaign , someone replied " Great idea, what do you have planned and where do we sign" ? Waiting for somebody else to do something will not get anything done.

We can do what FISHERMAN suggested , email, phone, post letters, flood the authorities, and complain to the owners , let them know how many MoHo people there are who support the tourist economy but we don't like being ripped off . Yes it takes a bit of our time, do we think its worth it ?

We can all very easily find councillors email addresses by just Googling the council involved , all the contact details are there for all to see. Even your local MP's email addresses are on the internet , just google their name and bingo .

Campsites also have email addresses for us to complain about prices and other gripes.......they may be making a killing this year from "new" people that hire MoHo's and new tent campers BUT when that group return to flying to the sunny Mediterranean beaches (and the majority will ) who will fill their campsites then ?

 

[alcam]

Not to mention there are still basic elsan dump and drinking water sites @£5 a night. I was on one three weeks or so ago

Think sometimes we need to remember that the fee does include parking . Recently stayed at the cattle market at Hawes , £10 in honesty box .
Parked for 24 hours + dump + water . Think that is reasonable for urban stopover

 

[Wully]

Do you think there is something wrong with VW camper vans, why call them cockroaches ? Travelling communities ( which a lot of councils are looking out for) don't normally use such small vans, small VW camper vans are normally genuine responsible campers.

Take it you own a VW I was meaning they are more suited to the roads down that way so there is gonna be more of them and there was hundreds of them scuttling all over the place like cockroaches or should I say beetles would that make you happy.

 

[Pedalman]

Take it you own a VW I was meaning they are more suited to the roads down that way so there is gonna be more of them and there was hundreds of them scuttling all over the place like cockroaches or should I say beetles would that make you happy.

Apologies, I think I misunderstood your intended point, which in my defence, was not up to your normal literary expertise.

 

[Pedalman]

Have a look on www.campra.org.uk to see templates of letters to use as a basis to send to councils and landowners. Things will only change when more of the motorcaravan community become proactive and contact councils themselves. Don't leave it to CAMpRA.

You are probably right, emails and letters from individuals would have a bigger influence on councils and landowners than repeated communications from CAMpRA . They might even read them.