Honda eu10i Generator earthing and bonding

[barge1914]

Sorry more generator stuff…

Just been looking at the Honda eu10i manual. It says the earth and neutral are not referenced, ie bonded together to the frame, in which case since there would be 115V on both live and neutral instead of 240V and 0V; therefore any RCD in the circuit would not operate.

If you want the RCD in the van to work, it says, you have to get an electrician to make a connection in the generator between neutral and the frame. In which case an earth spike is strongly recommended. Presumably because now you have 240V between live and earth.

I guess if the genny was not so bonded and did not have an earth spike then the risk of a 115V shock in an unearthed situation would be less disturbing than 240V…but still not desirable!

However…I wonder if it is normal practice for earth/ neutral to be bonded within the van itself…I hope not as it poses a whole new can of worms; with a floating neutral at 115V, if neutral and earth were bonded to the van chassis that chassis without an earth spike would also appear be at 115V…(less nasty than 240V but you would still know about it if you became the bridge between chassis and the ground).

In practice you may perhaps not always be in a position to bang a spike into the ground…and may not anyway be certain adequately low resistance…which then poses a dilemma, which set of risks is best to opt for?

I have read a number of sources who say that a suitcase generator without earth/neutral bonding doesn’t need to be earthed…and Honda seem to imply this without clearly stating so…however my thinking above suggests ‘well…er maybe’ provided there is no earth/ neutral bond in the van (so that becomes a most significant question). I can’t however see any reason in either case where an earth spike would be a bad idea, I’m sure whatever fails any earth is better than none.

Has anyone with a Honda genny looked into this and know the real answers…I may just be making waves where none exist?

Also, who sells a suitable earth spike?

 

[harrow]

Sorry more generator stuff…

Just been looking at the Honda eu10i manual. It says the earth and neutral are not referenced, ie bonded together to the frame, in which case since there would be 115V on both live and neutral instead of 240V and 0V; therefore any RCD in the circuit would not operate.

If you want the RCD in the van to work, it says, you have to get an electrician to make a connection in the generator between neutral and the frame. In which case an earth spike is strongly recommended. Presumably because now you have 240V between live and earth.

I guess if the genny was not so bonded and did not have an earth spike then the risk of a 115V shock in an unearthed situation would be less disturbing than 240V…but still not desirable!

However…I wonder if it is normal practice for earth/ neutral to be bonded within the van itself…I hope not as it poses a whole new can of worms; with a floating neutral at 115V, if neutral and earth were bonded to the van chassis that chassis without an earth spike would also appear be at 115V…(less nasty than 240V but you would still know about it if you became the bridge between chassis and the ground).

In practice you may perhaps not always be in a position to bang a spike into the ground…and may not anyway be certain adequately low resistance…which then poses a dilemma, which set of risks is best to opt for?

I have read a number of sources who say that a suitcase generator without earth/neutral bonding doesn’t need to be earthed…and Honda seem to imply this without clearly stating so…however my thinking above suggests ‘well…er maybe’ provided there is no earth/ neutral bond in the van (so that becomes a most significant question). I can’t however see any reason in either case where an earth spike would be a bad idea, I’m sure whatever fails any earth is better than none.

Has anyone with a Honda genny looked into this and know the real answers…I may just be making waves where none exist?

Also, who sells a suitable earth spike?

What would be interesting would be to carefully test the outputs with a multimeter, legal bit barring in mind if you get it wrong you could kill yourself

You can easily buy domestic earth spikes from the likes of toolstation and screwfix, getting them out the ground might not be so easy as they intended to be driven into the ground with only the last few inches sticking up.

So a home made earth spike might be more practical making it reusable.

A slab of boiler plate say 18 inches square underneath a vehicle/camper wheel dosed with copious amounts of grey water might do the job of an earth spike.

:wave::wave::wave:

 

[jagmanx]

Not directly relevant but ...

Further to the post on an earth "spike" for an external 13 amp socket... Yes
A generator Earth spike Yes

We had an electric shower (or should I say a water shower electrically heated) fitted here in Thailand.
All the work was done properly with 3 wires in plastic conduit and a new feed from the consumer unit to the shower.
The electrician (who I have total confidence in) routed the earth from the shower unit to a spike driven into the ground/earth immediately outside the shower building...yes thankyou

 

[barge1914]

Genny earthing

If its a 230v genny then only the pos wire has current same as a house,there should be a clamp for a eth wire to ground spike,if there is not and its using n/e tp frame as most cheap ones do then you may be stuffed.
Alf is the man in the know,you could pm him.

Hi

Not it seems always the case. On our old barge we had a big beast of a 27 KVA Genny, neutral and earth were not bonded at the hull, so when the Genny was running each carried 115V, which meant unless you held both neutrral and live in your hand you couldn't get a hit of more than 115V off anything. On shore power we were back to 230V on live only due to power suppliers bonding connections. Of course there we floated in a bloody big wet earth!

 

[barge1914]

Genny

Incidentally, yesterday, I went out to give our new geny a little run, first start after filling with fuel and preservative a couple or three weeks ago.
Started first pull!
Just as our previous eu20i did
I was a little concerned as the newer Honda Genies are not made in Japan. I think without checking the box, that they are now made in Thailand, obviously supposedly to Honda spec!

Yes, taken ours out of the box...going to play with it soon. Are you using an earth spike? What did you make of the instructions on pages 12 and 14 of the warranty booklet?

By the way I've asked Honda dealer for their two-pennyworth on the subject...still waiting.

 

[witzend]

27 years using genny from service van in all weathers & never used a earth spike good job our elf & safety didn't know they'd have had us driving one in. We always thought that they worked against us rather than with us

 

[Deleted member 5816]

No Comment.

ALF wake up :sleep-027:

 

[Deleted member 5816]

Err :danger: No Comment

Problem here is that the geny is eth neg together ,where a full separate eth unit is required,alf alf where are you.

 

[molly 2]

Err :danger: No Comment

. Well said .

 

[sak]

Earth point on the Honda EU10i is the screw below the yellow label

 

[moth]

I note the Danger warnings above and appreciate the caution about giving advice.
I do not see any problem in discussing this further so we can understand more fully what is going on and then perhaps present that understanding to Honda and (in my case) Brennenstuhl to come up with a definitive best practice.

I use one of these for small power tools off-grid. It is of factory configuration with NO subsequent modification to the earth/neutral reference. I put a personal RCD breaker right at the genny outlet socket (on a 2-way piggyback just to move it away from the flap and braced with a bungee to counter vibration) and a brass earth rod in the ground from the earth connection point. When using the "test" button on my RCD the cut-out triggers thus giving the impression that the RCD functions correctly.

I refer to the OP....... "therefore any RCD in the circuit would not operate"

So if this is the case I don't know why mine is working. Is the test function truly indicative of the required operation in the field?

Thank you.

 

[jagmanx]

No Problem

Incidentally, yesterday, I went out to give our new geny a little run, first start after filling with fuel and preservative a couple or three weeks ago.
Started first pull!
Just as our previous eu20i did
I was a little concerned as the newer Honda Genies are not made in Japan. I think without checking the box, that they are now made in Thailand, obviously supposedly to Honda spec!

With "Made in Thailand" Highly competent staff.
Nimble fingers and hardworking !

Yes cheaper (but lets us not go into that)

Same goes for computer parts HDD SSD etc

I bought my current ASUS PC/Hybrid from UK just to make sure of keyboard and language
Have bought several addons (USB items) in Thailand all work fine

Also Samsung tablet and phone repaired...CANNOT do in UK !

Bought a samsung smartphone here all VG marginally cheaper

 

[barge1914]

Honda gene servicing

Honda say that to preserve 5 yr warranty the gene must be serviced by a Honda dealer every year. But with precious little hours run, and no Honda dealer anywhere within reasonable striking distance is it really worth it for what is a simple enough DIY job? Seems a lot of faff. Do you get yours serviced? Anyone ever had any issues worth heading off at the pass?

 

[trevskoda]

Err :danger: No Comment

You are correct as i misread the first post alf

 

[Deleted member 5816]

Err NO. :danger: it is only a Test Function.

Alf

I note the Danger warnings above and appreciate the caution about giving advice.
I do not see any problem in discussing this further so we can understand more fully what is going on and then perhaps present that understanding to Honda and (in my case) Brennenstuhl to come up with a definitive best practice.

I use one of these for small power tools off-grid. It is of factory configuration with NO subsequent modification to the earth/neutral reference. I put a personal RCD breaker right at the genny outlet socket (on a 2-way piggyback just to move it away from the flap and braced with a bungee to counter vibration) and a brass earth rod in the ground from the earth connection point. When using the "test" button on my RCD the cut-out triggers thus giving the impression that the RCD functions correctly.

I refer to the OP....... "therefore any RCD in the circuit would not operate"

So if this is the case I don't know why mine is working. Is the test function truly indicative of the required operation in the field?

Thank you.

uhh h

 

[bobj808]

Our Honda EU2000i has a floating negative. To do a bonding would be impossible. We use the earthing point on the genny to, erm, earth it. I would need 2 problems with it and be unlucky really to get killed, which to be fair would be unlikely but still possible. I can still be totalled without it tripping. That's my understanding and what I do. What anyone else does is their call. Bob.

 

[st3v3]

In fact on a building site supply it is required not to have either leg bonded.

That's because they'll be using 110V equipment, that is supplied by a transformer that is centre tapped to earth. Reason being that whatever you touch it can only be 55V above earth potential, therefore safer.