Renault Trafic and probably others

[Auld Pharrrt]

For the past few days I have been having problems with the alarm on my van going off spontaneously and at, apparently randomly differing time intervals. I tried adding a little extra thickness to the door switches and their contacts, but it didn't seem to help. I got away with it for a couple of days as it seemed to settle down and I had discovered that if I keep the driver's door open as I press the keyfob to lock the doors all the doors lock except the driver's door, I could then close the door and lock it with the key and the alarm wasn't enabled as far as I could tell ... the immobiliser light on the dash still flashes though.
Anyway, yesterday evening, after two doys or so of peace and quiet, the alarm apparently decided to arm itself and then start going off again. When I was fitting the extra padding to the door switches, I noticed that my engine battery was sitting at around 11v, it normally is around 11.5 or so. So this got me to thinking ... if the engine battery voltage is fluctuating (it was getting very frosty when the nonsense started) with the cold then the alarm system maybe thinks something is coming on when it shouldn't be and shouting about it.
Bear in mind, I don't move my van an awful lot when I'm not out and about and it has basically been sitting without moving for the greater part of 6 weeks or so since it went more than a mile or two (the alarm battery therefore wouldn't have got any charging for that long) ... Hmmm, so to test my theory, yesterday evening after it set off again, I took it for a wee drive along to Forfar (about 30ish miles) bought a mock chop supper and a single fish from the chippy in the high street and went around to Asda's to sit in their car park while me and wee dug demolished the grub (engine running) ... after dinner, I then took a long way home and by the end the drive was in the region of 60+ miles and my ondash voltage meter was showing 14.1 when the fan was on and 14.5 when it was off, to me that's a fully charged battery.

The alarm has been silent ever since! Okay, I accept that the vibrations from the drive may have cleaned and settled the door switches, but I reckon the cure was charging the alarm's back-up battery, as well as the engine battery.

 

[harrow]

Yes that's logical.

If the alarm is locking for a volt drop when the interior light comes on then if the battery was getting low then that's a reasonable idea.

My solution would be to leave the starter battery charging with a smart battery charger, rather than driving it, but that depends on your circumstances.

:wave:

 

[2cv]

There could of course be many causes, this from another forum is one "If the van is 3+ years old and has a battery back up siren, then the rechargeable battery cells can fail, the alarm thinks that there is a voltage drop and the alarm is activated."

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Yes that's logical.

If the alarm is locking for a volt drop when the interior light comes on then if the battery was getting low then that's a reasonable idea.

My solution would be to leave the starter battery charging with a smart battery charger, rather than driving it, but that depends on your circumstances.

:wave:

That would probably be just as good, but it's not so easy to get it up three flights of stairs to my flat ... Although, a few years ago I did join up about 10 extension leads and tied wee bits of an old "don't knock me doon" vest to make it visible and tossed it off my veranda so I could get power to a job I was doing ... nowadays I just use my nephew's driveway ... I'm not 100% positive if the alarm's back-up battery would get charged in that way, which was partially why I took it for a drive.

There could of course be many causes, this from another forum is one "If the van is 3+ years old and has a battery back up siren, then the rechargeable battery cells can fail, the alarm thinks that there is a voltage drop and the alarm is activated."

Yes, I have seen many forum posts on the subject in the past, but as it isn't a problem I normally have I think it is safe to say the back-up battery isn't in too bad a condition, even after 13 years of service!

 

[Deleted member 5816]

Most alarms are designed to sound if the Battery voltage goes below 12v this is to warn you that the battery may run down and hence no Alarm. The same with a house alarm. Most false alarms are from low Battery Voltage.

However most manuals don't tell you this, .......... its a way of generating extra business for Installers.

Alf

For the past few days I have been having problems with the alarm on my van going off spontaneously and at, apparently randomly differing time intervals. I tried adding a little extra thickness to the door switches and their contacts, but it didn't seem to help. I got away with it for a couple of days as it seemed to settle down and I had discovered that if I keep the driver's door open as I press the keyfob to lock the doors all the doors lock except the driver's door, I could then close the door and lock it with the key and the alarm wasn't enabled as far as I could tell ... the immobiliser light on the dash still flashes though.
Anyway, yesterday evening, after two doys or so of peace and quiet, the alarm apparently decided to arm itself and then start going off again. When I was fitting the extra padding to the door switches, I noticed that my engine battery was sitting at around 11v, it normally is around 11.5 or so. So this got me to thinking ... if the engine battery voltage is fluctuating (it was getting very frosty when the nonsense started) with the cold then the alarm system maybe thinks something is coming on when it shouldn't be and shouting about it.
Bear in mind, I don't move my van an awful lot when I'm not out and about and it has basically been sitting without moving for the greater part of 6 weeks or so since it went more than a mile or two (the alarm battery therefore wouldn't have got any charging for that long) ... Hmmm, so to test my theory, yesterday evening after it set off again, I took it for a wee drive along to Forfar (about 30ish miles) bought a mock chop supper and a single fish from the chippy in the high street and went around to Asda's to sit in their car park while me and wee dug demolished the grub (engine running) ... after dinner, I then took a long way home and by the end the drive was in the region of 60+ miles and my ondash voltage meter was showing 14.1 when the fan was on and 14.5 when it was off, to me that's a fully charged battery.

The alarm has been silent ever since! Okay, I accept that the vibrations from the drive may have cleaned and settled the door switches, but I reckon the cure was charging the alarms back-up battery, as well as the engine battery.

 

[Mightyduk1]

.

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Most alarms are designed to sound if the Battery voltage goes below 12v this is to warn you that the battery may run down and hence no Alarm. The same with a house alarm. Most false alarms are from low Battery Voltage.

However most manuals don't tell you this, .......... its a way of generating extra business for Installers.

Alf

I'm dubious of that because I have been sleeping in it in the past and had to get a push to start the following morning because I'd stupidly drained the battery overnight ... I always lock the doors which sets the alarm (interior sensors disabled) when I'm bedding down for the night and on this occasion the alarm didn't go off, but I have seen it happen to a car in the campsite at John O' Groats when someone had left his sidelights on by mistook. It was very sad for the poor auld bugger, because he had never used the key for years and he couldn't unlock his doors manually. There wasn't enough juice in his battery to fire the central locking ... even though he called the AA, the local garage was sent out but he was a typical truculent highlander who had no intention of getting out of his bed until 9 in the morning ... for about 7 hours the entire campsite had to listen to his alarm wailing ... it was quite comical as the voltage got lower and lower the alarm got more and more feeble and pathetic sounding as the hours crept by.

We all managed to see the funny side of it and befriended the poor old boy.

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Okay, I am now very much convinced that the alarm's back-up battery is goosed or almost goosed ... taking the van for a drive did stop the false alarms for about two weeks or so but it did it again yesterday, so I went for some shopping ... much to my surprise, it went off again this morning so after a few grrrs and sweary words, I took it for a wee drive away from my front door and disconnected the noisy bit ... ahhh bliss, ok, so my indicators will still go off, but now I have done this I can re-connect the remote control for my Eberspacher and switch it on from the hoose so it de-frosts my van for me if I am going out.

I reckon the cold weather has been the final straw for the back-up battery and it has decided to do a dying swan act on me ... once things warm up I'll look into replacing the back-up battery (or maybe nor bother if my indicators don't go mental on a permanent basis ... anyone know what the battery in a Renault Trafic alarm system is and where to get one?

 

[trevskoda]

Once you let a battery go down that low it will never regain its full charge or hold any charge for a longish time,its stuffed.:hammer:

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Once you let a battery go down that low it will never regain its full charge or hold any charge for a longish time,its stuffed.:hammer:

I pretty much suspected something along those lines Trev, but the engine battery has a reasonable charge in it (enough to start the engine) so once the alarm started sounding it got re-charged by means of taking it for a run ... Personally I think it is simply down to old age, the van will be 15 this year ... that and the very cold weather I think has maybe finally killed the back-up battery in the alarm unit, for the moment I have disconnected the sounder so at least it is quiet, even if my hazards do flash now and then ... tomorrow (or a.s.a.p) I will isolate the flashers by using a small double pole single throw relay to dis-able them when the ignition is off, but I'll add a by-pass switch to activate the relay without the ignition so I can still use the hazards should I need them, that way any local scrotes won't know the sounder is disabled. During the warmer weather I will try and access the alarm unit and see if I can replace the battery, but it would be very useful to know what the battery is, if anyone happens to come across this thread and knows what I need ... I'm hoping to avoid having to put it into Renault to get it sorted out so I'd probably do without it if I can't solve it myself ... yes, I know the effects that will have on insurance etc.

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Another wee twist to this story ... when I first discovered the problem a few weeks ago, I had tried using the fob to lock all the doors but held the driver's door open (I think I mentioned this in an earlier post.) That seemed to have the effect of being able to lock the van without activating the alarm (it doesn't activate if there is a door open, it just gives one short beep to warn you a door isn't properly closed and the indicators don't flash as they normally would.) Anyway, I now suspect that was wrong because a couple of days later all hell broke loose, so somehow the system seemed to have armed itself after I had walked away ... Yes, I had tried opening the doors with the key to see if the alarm was armed at the time, and it appeared to have been dis-armed, I tried it a couple of times to make sure. One of the things that complicates it a little is that on the Trafic, if you unlock the doors with the fob but fail to open any door within 30 seconds, it will automatically re-lock itself and re-arm the alarm.

Anyway, after much research and trying some techniques not listed as Trafic techniques (Clio, Megane etc.) I came across one mention where someone had used the dashboard switch to lock the doors from the inside (with the driver's door held open) and then locked the driver's door with the key from outside ... he had posted that this would stop the alarm from arming (which, it does seem to do because the indicators didn't flash when I tried it yesterday, I have yet to go down and unlock it this morning to see if it is armed or dis-armed ... it's snowing just now so I'll wait to see if that stops because I need to get out for some shopping later on anyway.)

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Just a follow-up

I've been a busy wee man for too long but finally, yesterday, I got the opportunity to spend a little time on a cunning plan ... In an earlier post I mentioned that I had disconnected the siren from the alarm system to prevent any rude awakenings for my neighbours (and me) during the night. I also adopted the habit of locking the van by using the method I mentioned using the dashboard switch to lock the doors with the driver's door open, then lock the driver's door using the key ... that kept my neighbours friendly.

In the back of my mind, I was pretty convinced that the two main contributing factors to this problem were 1. The bloody fiercely cold winter and 2. The fact that I hadn't been using my van on a fairly regular basis so the neither the engine battery nor the back-up battery were getting a regular top up. Anyway, I decided that once the weather warmed up (which took bloody months this year) I was going to fit a miniature 3 pole switch in line with the connection to the siren which I had disconnected. That job was done yesterday and last night was it's first overnight test.

The van has been sitting now since around 5PM yesterday until now (7:30AM) and I got a good, undisturbed night's sleep. Therefore, I am assuming that both batteries are sufficiently charged and the back-up battery is still holding sufficient charge to keep the alarm happy. More importantly though is I now have the peace of mind to know that if things do go awry again and the alarm starts triggering for no apparent reason, I can open my bonnet and flick the switch to disable the siren quickly and easily.

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

More info for Trafic owners

Okay ... Part of the reason I have been kept busy as mentioned in my post above, was that I had a minor breakdown one afternoon.

I decided I fancied some of my favourite ice cream from Sainsbury's and I decided to treat myself to a chuken flied lice and cully sauce too. So I hopped in the van and drove around the corner to Sainsbury's with the intention of walking round to the takeaway once I came out. As I approached the van, I noticed that my indicators didn't flash when I unlocked the doors with the fob so I locked and unlocked them a couple of times in fairly quick succession to see if I'd simply missed it (I'd locked the doors via the fob.) I then had an afterthought, that maybe the system wouldn't like me playing with the fob like this so I decided to start the van and make sure it was happy ... I'm glad I did because my flied lice and cully sauce would have got cold!

The van started, but cut out almost immediately ... Ooo, strange, it's never done that before ... After a few attempts I got her started but I could hear that she wasn't revving right and didn't seem to be her happy wee self. I promptly drove home (less than half a mile) but even then I had to nurse her gently. Once at the house, I tried revving her up a bit but she wasn't for having any of that and she died.

Next day I had a wee look-see what was going on but there was nothing too obvious. So, being a diesel, basically as long as you give them sufficient fuel and air they usually will run ... First on my list was replace the air filter (I always have at least one spare of each filter) but I didn't believe for one second that it was the air filter, normally you'd get loadsa black smoke if it was getting bad. Next was the fuel filter (I admit I had never changed this and had no idea when it last got replaced) ... I was thoroughly ashamed when I saw the state of the thing that emerged from the filter housing ... It was like the monster from the black lagoon (ok dark brown sludgey lagoon.) Oh crappadoodle ... Did I fill up with REALLY bad diesel last time?

Anyway, I had two filters (Dingbro mentioned there were several listed for this engine) so I had bought the most popular one at the time and my nephew who recently sold his Vivaro (same vehicle different badge) had given me his spare filters (I taught him well.) On comparing the two filters, I noticed one was a couple of mm taller than the other (The Mann filter from Dingbro being the taller) so, me being me I thought the taller one will be a better seal inside so I'll try it first. All went according to plan, cleaned out the filter housing and replaced all the seals, bled the system and great, the van burst into life, hesitated a little to rev, but drove well ... in fact she was driving better than I remember her EVER driving, she was as good as a brand new Vivaro I'd hired a few years ago.

Next morning she refused to run, she'd start then die, exactly like the original breakdown, but without the eventual start and get me home scenario ... she just wasn't gonna go ... no problem, probably a little air not expelled yesterday ... a quick bleed and off she went ... next day, the same, and the next and many since.

Now, me being a tight fisted auld sod (actually I like to know what caused the problem) I like to eliminate things one at a time. So the first thing was to swap the taller filter for the slightly shorter filter ... went for a run. parked it up over night and it wouldn't start. bled it again, went for a drive, parked it up, next day she started, lacked power initially but picked up and was a flyer again. Parked up for 2 nights and 1 day, she wouldn't start without bleeding.

Right, I'll put you out of your misery. The number of forums threads I have read where people had this problem is unbelievable ... but I couldn't find the answer anywhere, which was why I was determined I was gonna solve this. Lots of theories, but no definitive solution was posted.

After a LOT of experimenting, I found that air was managing to seep in to the system overnight via the stupid connectors that clip the fuel lines onto the filter housing. When I changed the filters, instead of disconnecting them (I never disturb things if I don't need to) I simply moved the top of the housing out of my way, by doing so, I had twisted the fuel lines enough to disturb the pipe to connector seal and old age did the rest. I discovered this by twisting a few bits of garden wire around the joints and tightening it with pliers to form a temporary jubilee clip. This got a big improvement in the starting where it would be ok for 2 nights and a day, but it didn't like 3 nights and 2 days, so I knew I was on the right track. Also, the hand priming bulb used for bleeding has a one way valve in it ... That was my next target. So, armed with a new priming bulb, a new section of fuel line (fannied up with some pipe in the house) and attached to the original clip on connector thingy and lots of new jub-jub clips to make everything nice and tight I took a deep breath and sliced my original fuel line off about a foot back from the filter housing and fitted my own section ... another vast improvement, but when I wiggle things I can still see the odd bubble of air going down the fuel line to the engine ... I'd used clear pipe for my home made section so I could see if air was coming up from the tank, it isn't coming from the tank. In the end, I cut off the connector and put my new pipe directly to the filter housing ... This was the final stage which really got the problem almost, but not completely solved.

The van now starts happily in the morning, even after sitting for almost a full week, but if I play with the priming bulb while the engine is running I can see a few very fine air bubbles in my clear pipe as the bulb expands ... there is still the tiniest amount of air getting in somewhere, not enough to prevent the engine starting, but enough to make her sluggish in the morning for the first couple of hundred yards as I drive off ... The air is coming from either the filter housing (I cannot see any signs of damage or moisture from a leak or crack etc. so unlikely) the bleed nipple (unlikely) the housing cap (unlikely), the connector that is on the output side of the housing (also unlikely, but more likely than the first option) or my pipe to filter housing connection (most likely because the jub-jub clip might be pinching the pipe a little but I will replace it with the type that goes right around the pipe like a band ... Jubilee clips can pinch a pipe because of that wee bit of the strap that sticks out the way they are made.

Sorry for such a long-winded post, but for any (or the many) Trafic (Vivaro & Primestar) owner's who have ever had this problem with one of the older vehicles then this might save you some moolah, time, frustration and/or lost earnings ... this applies to any of the vans that have the filter housing attached to the inner offside wing.

 

[Pauljenny]

Would a cheap solar panel kit help.?
Aldi were selling one couple of weeks ago, so they are about.
Oops,should have read the next page!
Solar panels for the engine battery.
Hope your Trafic is singing like a bird,now. How old is your Trafic, may I ask ?

Note:

Predictive txt makes Trafic = Tragic... Hope that's not an omen.

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Would a cheap solar panel kit help.?
Aldi were selling one couple of weeks ago, so they are about.

More than likely the one I have on my roof keeping the LB charged would do the job, but I'd need to alter the home made charging system to divert the charge to the engine battery instead of the LB ... nah, it's not a major issue for me, if it does it again this winter (assuming it passes MOT etc.) I'll just disable the siren again on the cold nights, I'm convinced that it was mostly due to lack of regular use and the bitter cold we had here ... The first time I am doing any work on it I'll investigate where the BU battery is, and replace it with a cheap 12v motorbike battery or whatever it needs.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[Auld Pharrrt]

Would a cheap solar panel kit help.?
Aldi were selling one couple of weeks ago, so they are about.
Oops,should have read the next page!
Solar panels for the engine battery.
Hope your Trafic is singing like a bird,now. How old is your Trafic, may I ask ?

Note:

Predictive txt makes Trafic = Tragic... Hope that's not an omen.

Er, she's a 2005 so she's 13 this year (I thought it was older, bad maths.)

Yep, she's flying along at a rate of knots I haven't experienced for a long time, if ever. There's still a tiny wee bit of air getting in, but I think I have it sussed now and need to try my next experiment. Should know in a few days if I have finally conquered it, it has been very interesting, ruddy frustrating at times, but fun trying to track down the problem that I have seen hundreds of people having but I have never seen a solution posted, and believe me I have hunted for it.