Leisure Battery Advice

[bubwal]

So I've owned my 1st MH for the last 12 months,joined this great group and proud to say I have only wild camped. Just back from 3 nights around Devon. What is apparent is that I clearly need a new leisure battery. Despite charging b4 we leave and then driving for a few hours and barely using any electricity - rechargeable battery powered LED's etc for lighting, the battery drains within a few hours.

Need some recommendations on some good Leisure Batteries - don't want to spend a fortune on one which can power a small principality just want one that is going to keep a charge for a good 12-18 hours until I move on to the next location and it can be recharged while we are on the move

 

[GRWXJR]

I use just a bog standard 100Ah type 019 starter battery - not even a 'leisure battery as my LB.

I am one of many who doubts that many 'leisure batteries' actually have anything different inside the case anyway, and as long as you don't pound a standard battery dead flat (which LB's don't like either) then I cant see a performance deficit - so why spend more?

Like you I have LED's (except mine run direct off the LB) and the only other significant draw is my Webasto Heater (not that I use it much) and that kind of autonomy is easily achievable (think i worked out at 50% DID that a 100AH battery would give me maybe 90 hrs using basic lighting only in my van).

I generally move every day, but have (in summer) parked up at a MTB race event for 3 nights with no issues.

My LB isn't an expensive 'branded' battery, has been in there now for maybe 18 months without issue, and its rarely on EHU either.

But then maybe I've just ben lucky. you pays yer money etc.....

G.

 

[Deleted member 43466]

battery

i bought a bosch s5 powerframe battery for engine but they can double up as lesure battery
really powerfull and good technology gauranteed for 5 years
they have 25 percent more power than conventional battery
willnot go flat while lying idle not being used expensive though £120

 

[Siimplyloco]

I found this advice from A&N Caravan services to be most enlightening, and I've been mucking around with leisure batteries for many years now. I took their advice and now have two Varta 110 Ah batteries installed for only £10 more each than the Newmax battery that didn't last a two seasons!
A and N Caravan Services : Battery Technology Advances mean big savings and better batteries for Caravans/Motorhomes

John

 

[Deleted member 13867]

That's my recent experience with Halfords too, the battery on my car was two years old a Halfords branded Yuasa Battery it started to fail last week 'a faulty cell' I took it back and they fitted a brand new one in less than 30 mins under warranty, i was well impressed i didn't even get my hands dirty.
The leisure battery on the van though i have just splashed out and purchased a 'Banner' low profile it just squeezes under the passenger seat about £100 we will see how it goes but they get constantly good reviews. However i would have no qualms about fitting a bog standard lead acid starter battery as a leisure battery as most 'leisure branded' batteries are re-badged starter batteries anyway.

 

[GRWXJR]

Hmm

Interesting article. I could take issue with some of the things in there and their explanations as they don't really ring true to me, but in essence I'd agree that Varta make some good stuff.

However, if it is true that Varta use a different technology and design/materials between their deep cycle and their starter products, I'm pretty sure that plenty of others in the cheaper bracket haven't.

Bearing in mind that the OP doesn't use very much power, and hasn't stated he pulls any big loads such as inverters, then he could probably get away with a battery that isn't anything too wonderful (as so far I have done).

Its worth bearing in mind that the performance out of 2 cheap starter batteries over the same period as one "better" Leisure Product might actually be better and also financially sound. The Warranty of a Varta (if honoured) though with their quality reputation would be very tempting as long as the price isn't outlandish I think.

G.

 

[Teutone]

So I've owned my 1st MH for the last 12 months,joined this great group and proud to say I have only wild camped. Just back from 3 nights around Devon. What is apparent is that I clearly need a new leisure battery. Despite charging b4 we leave and then driving for a few hours and barely using any electricity - rechargeable battery powered LED's etc for lighting, the battery drains within a few hours.

Need some recommendations on some good Leisure Batteries - don't want to spend a fortune on one which can power a small principality just want one that is going to keep a charge for a good 12-18 hours until I move on to the next location and it can be recharged while we are on the move

I would advise you to carry some basic tests out before you shell out for a new battery. Our previous motorhome was same chassis as yours and after loads of electrical problems and money spend on parts which didn't solve the problem, a simple earth lead solved it all.

--Take a multimeter and measure the voltage at the Starter battery direct. Should read 12.5V or above.
--Start the engine and let it run for a minute. Measure the voltage at the Starter battery. Should read 14V +/- 0.2
--If that is all ok keep the engine running and measure at the poles of the Leisure battery. If the reading is considerably less, there could be a problem with Voltage supply (worn out split charge relais etc.)

--With the engine running, get somebody to measure the voltage on the poles of the starter battery.
--Now take the Black Lead from your Jump Lead Set and connect one end to the MINUS pole of the Starter battery and the other to the HOUSING of the alternator (careful, running fan belt close by)
--Compare the Voltage reading with the jump lead on and off, any significant change will indicate corrosion
in your earth straps.

Mine was sparking so much that I though I am holding a stick welder in my hand when touching the alternator housing! I solved this by ADDING another earth lead (needs to be at least 20mm cable!) from the alternator bracket to the main earth point directly under the battery tray.

If required, CLEAN the earth points on the chassis. Mine was covered in white paint. FIAT didn't bother to mask it off before painting the chassis......

If you have a battery with screw caps, check the water level.

You never know, you may not need a new battery at all. But even if you buy a new/larger battery, it's good to know that everything is working as designed.

I wasted 3 month and quite some £££'s because I didn't think logical and went with the "failed" part first. (replaced a perfectly working alternator with a new one)

12Volt is a very low voltage to work with and relies and good connections.

 

[maxi77]

Yachties who place even more reliance on their batteries than the average motorhomer almost all use leisure or traction batteries. Starter batterie are designed to provide high currents fast for a few seconds, this requires a different plate construction to long term low output as needed from most house batteries. I personally would always buy a proper leisure battery of a known make. Treat them well, keep then topped up both charge and water and they will give years of good service.

 

[Obanboy666]

Same as Wintonion, 2 x Yuasa 100 amp batteries.
Motorhome had 1 x Yuasa installed when bought new last year so fitted same type / ampage. Appear to work great, 2/3 days without hookup using tv everyday with satellite etc, etc.
Fitting the second battery has been money well spent imho.

 

[hextal]

The 2 main types of battery are starter and traction. Starter batteries are good for heavy drain but not good for deep discharge. Traction are good for deep discharge but not heavy drain.

Leisure batteries are something of a marketing triumph, in that they are essentially just starter batteries.

Both starter and traction batts are fine for use in motorhomes. Traction batts cost more (though not that much more), but can work out cheaper (did for me anyway) in terms of usable charge as they can be discharged much further.

Manufacturers generally recommend discharging no more than 50% for starter batts but 80% is OK for traction batts. So on a 100ah starter batt you get 50ah usable, whereas on a traction batt you get 80ah usable

So a traction battery may cost 30% more, but you get circa 60% more usable charge.

That said, I wouldn't expect the odd discharge below 50% to do much damage to a starter, its more repeat/continual discharge below these levels that will likely start eating into lifespan. So if you're not out every week then probably not a major worry.

 

[Siimplyloco]

SNIP

Manufacturers generally recommend discharging no more than 50% for starter batts but 80% is OK for traction batts. So on a 100ah starter batt you get 50ah usable, whereas on a traction batt you get 80ah usable

So a traction battery may cost 30% more, but you get circa 60% more usable charge.

SNIP.

What struck me about the A&N article was the fact that our Electrobloc control unit, and many others like it, switches most of the 12v systems off at 10.5v, so the advantages of a deep cycle battery are somewhat reduced! In addition, now that I've fitted a big PSW inverter, and all the other loads are minor - LED's etc - a top quality starter battery seems an ideal solution. £85.00 each, delivered free. We shall see..
John

 

[GRWXJR]

The 2 main types of battery are starter and traction. Starter batteries are good for heavy drain but not good for deep discharge. Traction are good for deep discharge but not heavy drain.

Leisure batteries are something of a marketing triumph, in that they are essentially just starter batteries.

Both starter and traction batts are fine for use in motorhomes. Traction batts cost more (though not that much more), but can work out cheaper (did for me anyway) in terms of usable charge as they can be discharged much further.

Manufacturers generally recommend discharging no more than 50% for starter batts but 80% is OK for traction batts. So on a 100ah starter batt you get 50ah usable, whereas on a traction batt you get 80ah usable

So a traction battery may cost 30% more, but you get circa 60% more usable charge.

That said, I wouldn't expect the odd discharge below 50% to do much damage to a starter, its more repeat/continual discharge below these levels that will likely start eating into lifespan. So if you're not out every week then probably not a major worry.

All the info I've seen Hextal, suggests that even Deep-Cycle Traction cells like Fork Lift stuff don't really like more than 50% DID if you want em to last.

But.... I often wonder if the confusion is because of just WHERE the operating range of the battery's power is drawn from?

As the bumf with big batteries and Inverter systems off-grid that we installed showed.. that the typical battery charge (with a clever charger) nominally only takes a cell to approx. 80% (before it gasses or equalises, and at the bottom of the steep part of the performance curve of volts drop v current, and the top part of the shallow central part of the curve). You then travel through the 'middle' 60% to get the most 'bang for your buck' out of the cells in terms of current/power v volts drop. You then cut off at nominal 80% DID, but in reality you've only accessed 60% of the fully equalised (overcharged) state to fully knackered tested capacity.

In short I think ALL battery ratings need to be taken with a pinch of salt, and I work on 50% DID for prudence, regardless of battery type when estimating autonomy. Discharges times aren't linear anyway, as a battery stands up way better on very small long duration discharge scenarios than it does when asked to deliver large (percentage-wise) discharges of power, so effectively you get more power in total in the one scenario than the other.

The charging setups we employ on off-grid big battery packs (which chargers work much like intelligent van chargers on EHU do in cycling) need to have very high peak voltages set for the Equalise process, nigh on 2.5v per nominal 2v cell (15v on a 12v system), but in 'normal' cycle mode won't as high as that (meaning you aren't getting the extreme top "20%" to use hardly ever), while the cut-off voltage setting prevents you ever getting near the last "20%".

Seeing as leisure chargers in vans don't have an equalise capability (that I have ever seen anyhow) then that suggests to me that nobody generally uses more than 50% or maybe 60% of the battery rating at a push (without killing them off quicker than they might otherwise).

Like I said - it all gets a bit confusing!

 

[GRWXJR]

What struck me about the A&N article was the fact that our Electrobloc control unit, and many others like it, switches most of the 12v systems off at 10.5v, so the advantages of a deep cycle battery are somewhat reduced! In addition, now that I've fitted a big PSW inverter, and all the other loads are minor - LED's etc - a top quality starter battery seems an ideal solution. £85.00 each, delivered free. We shall see..
John

I'd have thought that a 10.5v cut off is actually working a battery pretty hard - that's down to 1.75v per cell. I'm not sure you'd want ANY type of battery taken that low on a regular basis, let alone any lower than that if you want decent life out of it.

Simply put, the more often you 'top-up' rather than fully cycle your batteries, the better they are likely to last. This is why starter batteries on cars can go years (hopefully) - they aren't ever deeply discharged - they turn the engine over with a quick burst, then the engine alternator instantly gets to work bringing it back up to full strength.

Battery performance increases with raised temps, and drops with the cold too (just like Me!) so if a battery is starting to tail off, sure as eggs it'll be the cold temps that see it off the rest of the way. Battery's are like people, they like to be comfortable - not too hot, and not too cold, and not worked to exhaustion, but with regular gentle exercise

 

[Siimplyloco]

Battery's are like people, they like to be comfortable - not too hot, and not too cold, and not worked to exhaustion, but with regular gentle exercise

Just like me: how perceptive!

 

[trevskoda]

i bought a bosch s5 powerframe battery for engine but they can double up as lesure battery
really powerfull and good technology gauranteed for 5 years
they have 25 percent more power than conventional battery
willnot go flat while lying idle not being used expensive though £120

no they dont have any more power like for like but they will cycle down a bit more without damaging the cells,and the will lose power but much slower than a standard engine cranking batt.the 5 year warrenty sound good though but you get what you pay for and i think its the warrenty you are buying.

 

[maxi77]

I'd have thought that a 10.5v cut off is actually working a battery pretty hard - that's down to 1.75v per cell. I'm not sure you'd want ANY type of battery taken that low on a regular basis, let alone any lower than that if you want decent life out of it.

Simply put, the more often you 'top-up' rather than fully cycle your batteries, the better they are likely to last. This is why starter batteries on cars can go years (hopefully) - they aren't ever deeply discharged - they turn the engine over with a quick burst, then the engine alternator instantly gets to work bringing it back up to full strength.

Battery performance increases with raised temps, and drops with the cold too (just like Me!) so if a battery is starting to tail off, sure as eggs it'll be the cold temps that see it off the rest of the way. Battery's are like people, they like to be comfortable - not too hot, and not too cold, and not worked to exhaustion, but with regular gentle exercise

10.5 volts is 0% capacity under load so it is a damaging situation which will have significantly reduced the battery life. Most leisure batteries lose capacity when disharged below 50% about 12.24 volts open circuit.

This site gives some pretty decent info on batteries Basic to Advanced Battery Information from Battery University

 

[oldtech]

Yachties who place even more reliance on their batteries than the average motorhomer almost all use leisure or traction batteries. Starter batterie are designed to provide high currents fast for a few seconds, this requires a different plate construction to long term low output as needed from most house batteries. I personally would always buy a proper leisure battery of a known make. Treat them well, keep then topped up both charge and water and they will give years of good service.

You've hit the nail on the head Maxi.... ( and Hextal )
Different types of battery for the two very different applications.
Golf carts and " tow-tractors" ( eg the ones they use at airports for moving planes ) don't use starter batteries or so-called "leisure batteries "
Skimping on batteries is a false economy.
I don't think you can beat two top-quality 6 volt batteries connected in series ( eg 2 x Trojan T105 )
OK it's a big initial outlay , but I think it works out cheaper in the long term.

I think what Teutone said is vital.
None of it will ever work properly unless the cables and connectors are top-quality , and in good condition.

To get the best from your batteries , and the longest life ,they need to be kept properly charged ,
and this can be a complicated issue , even though it sounds like stating the obvious.
From the physics point of view there is only one way to know this for certain ..... by using a hydrometer.
Every other method of checking the state-of-charge is a secondary method.
You may have noticed that vehicle electric specialists have a dedicated piece of testing equipment and it is
not a general purpose multi-meter.

No matter what type of battery/charge monitor is being used , if it says the battery is fully charged and the
hydrometer says it isn't ..... then the monitor is wrong.
What are you going to trust more .... a piece of electronics , or gravity ?
I'm not suggesting that constant testing with a hydrometer is needed , but it's the best way to make sure that
the monitor is giving a true picture .... and they are very cheap ( especially compared to the cost of new batteries ! )

By the way , good link from you Maxi .... thanks !

This guy , Handy Bob is a bit of a guru when it comes to all things " off-grid "

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

There is a heap of useful stuff on there , and so much more than just solar , but it is all well written and he is a very
interesting guy to read .
As an example , here's his section on batteries :-

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/


O

 

[GRWXJR]

Yep, our guys in work use proper battery discharge testing kit as well as hydrometers.

But.... so much of the 12v monobloc battery stuff now has gone 'sealed' so you cant actually top up electrolyte nor measure the SG value of each 2v cell. So the best method of ascertaining battery condition is being taken away.

So for big wet cell packs we can still do this, but are restricted to the discharge tester only on modern monoblocs.