parking bays

[n brown]

anyone know the law here ? i can often get my wheels within the lines on a bay,but only a Smartcar could get into the one behind me. i know that if it was a double yellow line i was overhanging, i'd be ok,but not sure if it's the same in a council car park

 

[antiquesam]

I think you'll find the rule is that all of the vehicle must fit within the space so that the car park owner can maximise profit or to maximise available parking spaces as they would put it

 

[oldish hippy]

if ipark mine in parking bay then noone can park on one side as there is only few inches of space between me and the car nex door ok iuse rear door or slider to squeeze out lol

 

[n brown]

i suppose i feel i have the right to have a van as sole means of transport,and as long as i park it as sensibly as poss i shouldn't be penalised for not owning 2 vehicles.
fat lot of good that would be in court i suppose !

 

[Robmac]

if ipark mine in parking bay then noone can park on one side as there is only few inches of space between me and the car nex door ok iuse rear door or slider to squeeze out lol

Your parking is legendary Barrie!

 

[Deleted member 34243]

First time I tried to park in Whitby I did ask the attendant. He said that officially I would have to buy two tickets but then said there were a few bays in the next carpark that backed on to grass and thus had long overhangs. He even walked over the road to show me the slots.
Doesn't help in general terms but does show that sometimes the staff are actually human.

 

[Deleted member 967]

I think you'll find the rule is that all of the vehicle must fit within the space so that the car park owner can maximise profit or to maximise available parking spaces as they would put it

As a result of Freedom of Information request made over the last year to ALL UK local authorities/parking providers on behalf of the Motor Caravan Tourism Organisation Motor Caravan Tourism Organisation

Each authority has its own Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) regarding use of its parking facilities on or off road.

Parking bays vary between 4.8m x 2.4 to the more general 5m x 2.5m. There are some authorities that do provide larger bays but they do not limit these to larger vehicles so these may be occupied by small cars. One provider stated that motorhomes could park in the on the road bays provided they fitted inside the road marking which was 1.8m wide.

Rules may say the vehicle must fit within the marked bay, or that all of the wheels must fit within the marked bay or that a permitted overhang is allowed and the measurement given, so carry a tape measure. Other authorities will not allow a vehicle larger than the bay to park.

Some authorities permit the use of tandem bays (back to back bays) provided a ticket for each bay used is displayed. Some that do, insist that the tickets are displayed side by side in the windscreen, Others insist that the ticket is displayed in the bay to which it relates. There are some authorities that permit the use of tandem bays for the cost of a single ticket.

Some authorities say that Motor Caravans must use the coach bays if provided and either pay the coach parking rate or the car parking rate. Other authorities will not allow any other vehicle to park in coach bays even if they are empty and the rest of the car park is full.

Some authorities have weight limits on their car parks. I have record of one authority that has a 1500kg weight limit, some are 2000kg, however the majority are 3500kg. Only coach and lorry parks have greater weight limits. Don't be fooled that the surface is not made up or tarmac as some unmade car parks have weight limits in the TRO.

Some TROs state that only certain vehicles specified, can use the car park. The do not specify Motor Caravans as an approved vehicle.

Some authorities will allow trailers other do not. Some that do insist that the trailer is attached to the vehicle at all times while others say the trailer must be detached. Payment also varies some charge for one unit, other charge as separate vehicles so tickets must be displayed on each one.

It is a mine field and you need to read the small print on the car park signage. However some of the signs do not display the information that motor caravan users need to know. Most TROs still use the definitions of vehicles in the Road Traffic Regulation 1984or 1988 or 1991. These are the old Motor car, Heavy Motorcar etc. and not the current EU/DVLA M for passenger vehicles or N for commercial vehicles or O for trailers. Motor Caravans are category M1SP M1 (a 4 or more wheeled passenger vehicle) with a special purpose body.

If you receive a parking ticket. Take photographs of the parked vehicle from all angles and of any road marking under it, Take pictures of any signage. Then contact the authority and request a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order. They have to supply you with this. Check all of the regulation to see that the reason for the ticket is in the TRO. It is then a matter of deciding if all the signage is clear, worn marking so that they cannot be seen or faded signage that cannot be read can be used to contest any TRO. If it is a ticket for overweight check that other heavy vehicles have also been ticketed as some authority employees will ticket motor caravans but not Heavy 4x4s etc. This is discrimination. Again take photos as evidence.

I hope this helps

 

[yorkslass]

I always park in bays that allow the rear to overhang, 20ft, and if I can"t find anywhere I don"t stop. so far I havn"t had a ticket.

 

[daisymini]

On my way to Ribblehead i stopped at a little pretty village within the Scabby borough council (name eludes me) Had my Blue badge in window read parking signs and promptly bought a ticket. It was an overflow carpark for coaches etc quite a few MH there so parked and got wheelchair out and took a nice stroll around the village. I was very conscious of the 1 hour limit we had so returned 10 mins early only to find i had a ticket stuck to my window!!! Reason??? My wheels were over the white line by about 4 inches not even the width of my tyres and as the other Mh were parked at the side of me i needed enough room to open my doors and get out..!!! Needless to say i wont be going again in a hurry..did think of challenging it as they put photos of said offence on line but just couldnt be bothered..! Just will not return..!

 

[caspar]

As a result of Freedom of Information request made over the last year to ALL UK local authorities/parking providers on behalf of the Motor Caravan Tourism Organisation Motor Caravan Tourism Organisation

Each authority has its own Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) regarding use of its parking facilities on or off road.

Parking bays vary between 4.8m x 2.4 to the more general 5m x 2.5m. There are some authorities that do provide larger bays but they do not limit these to larger vehicles so these may be occupied by small cars. One provider stated that motorhomes could park in the on the road bays provided they fitted inside the road marking which was 1.8m wide.

Rules may say the vehicle must fit within the marked bay, or that all of the wheels must fit within the marked bay or that a permitted overhang is allowed and the measurement given, so carry a tape measure. Other authorities will not allow a vehicle larger than the bay to park.

Some authorities permit the use of tandem bays (back to back bays) provided a ticket for each bay used is displayed. Some that do, insist that the tickets are displayed side by side in the windscreen, Others insist that the ticket is displayed in the bay to which it relates. There are some authorities that permit the use of tandem bays for the cost of a single ticket.

Some authorities say that Motor Caravans must use the coach bays if provided and either pay the coach parking rate or the car parking rate. Other authorities will not allow any other vehicle to park in coach bays even if they are empty and the rest of the car park is full.

Some authorities have weight limits on their car parks. I have record of one authority that has a 1500kg weight limit, some are 2000kg, however the majority are 3500kg. Only coach and lorry parks have greater weight limits. Don't be fooled that the surface is not made up or tarmac as some unmade car parks have weight limits in the TRO.

Some TROs state that only certain vehicles specified, can use the car park. The do not specify Motor Caravans as an approved vehicle.

Some authorities will allow trailers other do not. Some that do insist that the trailer is attached to the vehicle at all times while others say the trailer must be detached. Payment also varies some charge for one unit, other charge as separate vehicles so tickets must be displayed on each one.

It is a mine field and you need to read the small print on the car park signage. However some of the signs do not display the information that motor caravan users need to know. Most TROs still use the definitions of vehicles in the Road Traffic Regulation 1984or 1988 or 1991. These are the old Motor car, Heavy Motorcar etc. and not the current EU/DVLA M for passenger vehicles or N for commercial vehicles or O for trailers. Motor Caravans are category M1SP M1 (a 4 or more wheeled passenger vehicle) with a special purpose body.

If you receive a parking ticket. Take photographs of the parked vehicle from all angles and of any road marking under it, Take pictures of any signage. Then contact the authority and request a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order. They have to supply you with this. Check all of the regulation to see that the reason for the ticket is in the TRO. It is then a matter of deciding if all the signage is clear, worn marking so that they cannot be seen or faded signage that cannot be read can be used to contest any TRO. If it is a ticket for overweight check that other heavy vehicles have also been ticketed as some authority employees will ticket motor caravans but not Heavy 4x4s etc. This is discrimination. Again take photos as evidence.

I hope this helps

John,

Am I right in thinking the relevant TRO should also be mentioned on the back of the signage? It's quite possible I dreamt that!

 

[antiquesam]

What a strange dream.

 

[Martin P]

What a strange dream.

Then the traffic warden turned up with just the faint out line of her suspenders belt and stockings showing under her uniform. Have you parked your motorhome in my car park you naughty boy she said. I'm afraid I am going to have a look inside it ...................

 

[Steve121]

I always park in bays that allow the rear to overhang, 20ft, and if I can"t find anywhere I don"t stop. so far I havn"t had a ticket.

That's what I do.

 

[Deleted member 967]

John,

Am I right in thinking the relevant TRO should also be mentioned on the back of the signage? It's quite possible I dreamt that!

I have seen it stated on other forums that to be valid, a sign must state the details of the local authority and the number/name of the relivant Traffic Regulation Order (TRO). I have not come across such a requirement in the legislation. However I stand to be corrected.

There are two types of legal road signs. Those "Prescribed by the regulations" or those "approved by the Secretary of State". Other signs are of dubious legal standing and are intendend to be informational, but may not be legally enforcable. If no signs are shown a TRO cannot be enforced. If signs and marking are not readable/visible then a TRO cannot be enforced.

From the Department for Transport (DfT) as a result of a Freedom of Information Request.
Quote: As general background, I would like to explain that a local authority has powers to control parking in its area by any class of vehicle* by means of a Traffic Order (or Traffic Regulation Order). Traffic Signs on the public highway must be either as prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions or be as specially authorised by Secretary of State. Local authorities use such signs to indicate the provision of their Traffic Orders. - (* see comments below)
On 5 March 2012 a national authorisation was issued to all local authorities in England. This included a sign prohibiting waiting by Motor Caravans during the times shown, the relevant sign is “Authorised Sign R”.
(Department for Transport | Traffic Division | Regulatory Services and Information | 3/27 Great Minster House, 33 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 4DR john.munns@dft.gsi.gov.uk ) End Quote

and their website.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/contents/made

Road signs must comply with those shown in the Traffic Signs Regulations Guidance Details (TSRGD) http://m.tsrgd.co.uk/signs.html?id=0

Nothing in these Regulations shall be taken to limit the powers of the Secretary of State, the Scottish Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales under section 64(1) and (2) of the 1984 Act to authorise the erection or retention of traffic signs of a character not prescribed by these Regulations. End website quote.

So road signs that were errected before these regulation came into force can be deemed to be prescribed.
The Secretary of State, the Scottish Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales can also specifically authorise a sign.

The P "Parking places" sign is 801 and can have other signs attached to its mounting pole so among others sign 804.3 "Parking place for motorised caravans or caravans drawn by motor vehicles" or sign 622. "Towed caravans prohibited". (Note: Sign 622 does not apply to Motorised caravans) In the TSRDG online the 622 sign has been mis labled as "Town caravans prohibited".




The sign refered to above "Authorised sign R" does not appear in the TSRDG listing online. It is a lemon rectangular sign 20cm x 40 cm with the words Motor Caravans and to the right a "Tempory prohibition of waiting except for loading and unloading" sign 633 and the times and or dates/months below. The black sign borders are optional. It may also have a arrow.
Note. Only the prescribed wording, font size and typeface and sign size are permitted. Other layouts would/could make the signs and therefor the orders unenforceable.



* Classes of vehicle are also a debatable issue. Many Local Authorities will specify Motor car, Heavy motorcar, goods vehicle, HGV, Bus or Coach. Motor Cycle, Invalid carrage in their TROs.
The UK has now adopted the EU description of vehicles these being "M" for Passenger vehicles, "N" for goods vehicles and "O" for trailers. This has not yet filtered through to TROs and signage.
Motor Caravans, (together with Hearses and Ambulances) are M1(SP) They are not Trailer Caravans which come under class O1 or O2.
Motor Caravans and other passenger cars are M1- A four or more wheeled passenger carrying vehicle with up to 8 passenger seats plus the driver. SP denotes that it has a "Special Purpose Body". Dimensions and/or weight do not preclude them from this class of vehicle.

 

[howsono]

It would be really nice if someone brighter than me could produce a flowchart of "am I allowed to sleep here".

I'd pay for that. In fact, if someone does create one I'll have them printed and laminated and post them out to the first 10 people that ask for them at my cost to say thanks

 

[Deleted member 967]

It would be really nice if someone brighter than me could produce a flowchart of "am I allowed to sleep here".

I'd pay for that. In fact, if someone does create one I'll have them printed and laminated and post them out to the first 10 people that ask for them at my cost to say thanks

The simple answer your query is, only on a licenced caravan site or an exempted place such as a CL/CS. Any other place you need to check.

 

[QFour]

We always work on the theory that if they cannot be bothered to provide parking space we can get in then we go somewhere that does. Out of town retail is a good example and the smaller towns wonder why they are dying. While we were away we found one village. Followed the P Signs to the FREE Car Park which was half way down a road that was No Entry at the end. The car park entrance was a 90 Degree turn with bollards all over the place so we just left. As we were driving down the main street we found a space for 2 so filled that instead. If we had not found a space we would just have carried on. The local butcher benefited so did the small super market and the news agent. Councils don't see it and would rather you didn't stop. They certainly don't see the big picture and think that you should park on a camp site. Preferably belonging to one of their members of the Council. What they fail to understand is that we don't always want to.



The Disabled Parking place just as you enter had a car in it. We parked on the double yellows and emptied the loo ... Surprising how many car parks have a toilet block ..

Sometimes we just want to stop and explore ............

..

 

[John H]

Further to John Thompson's excellent summary above, in answer to casper's enquiry and in the words of the Department of Transport itself:

"The only specific statutory requirement for local authorities to place traffic signs is that they must provide signs that are adequate to indicate the provisions of TROs. TROs are made under the requirements of the RTRA and decisions on what restrictions should be applied and signed are a matter for local discretion."

In other words, if a sign has a specific reference to a TRO then you can be pretty sure it exists; if it does not refer to a TRO then it does not mean there isn't one (although you can draw your own conclusions as to why they might fail to mention a TRO if it exists!). If you wish to find out whether there is a TRO then this information should be publicly available - either from the council offices or the local library. If they prevaricate about letting you see a TRO then you can draw your own conclusions about whether one exists or not.