Jimmy Carrs tax avoidance

[fofeg101]

My memory is vague now but I seem to remember that at sometime since WW2 the French had problems with collecting tax on earnings, very few people were declaring their earnings for income tax purposes so they decided if they couldn't get the tax revenue when money was earned they would collect it when it was spent which resulted in a high purchase tax, or VAT, rate whichever they had then. I can only assume it was easier to collect tax that way because it still relied on people declaring income.....are there any Francophile's out there who know the detail?

 

[John H]

My memory is vague now but I seem to remember that at sometime since WW2 the French had problems with collecting tax on earnings, very few people were declaring their earnings for income tax purposes so they decided if they couldn't get the tax revenue when money was earned they would collect it when it was spent which resulted in a high purchase tax, or VAT, rate whichever they had then. I can only assume it was easier to collect tax that way because it still relied on people declaring income.....are there any Francophile's out there who know the detail?

Don't know anything about the history of the French tax system but the latest figures I can find from googling it are from 2011 and are as follows:

Income Tax is progressive up to a maximum of 40%
VAT is charged at a maximum of 19.6%

So, not so very different - income tax maybe slightly lower and VAT slightly higher.

 

[Coolasluck]

Just to bring your summary up to date, in modern society this ratio is reversed and there are fewer producers than non-producers, which brings us to the ultimate dilemma:

We now live longer thanks to the efforts of those non-producers (be they sewage workers or doctors) but we all become non-producers (pensioners) as a result. It doesn't take Einstein to know that the money won't stretch and eventually the s**t will hit the fan. Human greed and selfishness means that nobody wants to give up the pensions they were promised (if the non-doctors on here were doctors, they would be on strike with the rest of them, even though we all know the situation is unsustainable - greed is not confined to either the rich or the poor). Perhaps the solution is to ban the public sector, all die younger and save the state lots of money? On the other hand.............

Btw, sorry you had a bad experience with your teachers but we are not all like that - honest :wave:

The best option for me and simplest is to control the population,we breed like rats,even in the third world the downtroden african female is breeding without a care for the child who will be bought into this world kicking and screaming and without hardly anything to eat and drink.We are all living longer and in so doing wrecking our world in unsustainability.It scares me to think that one day the world is going to have to take stock of our mortality,particularly as our science combats natures own brand of population control,but will we ever be able to control ourselves?

 

[vwalan]

thought for today ...


when the last human being ,breathes its last breathe. the world may be a better place.

 

[phoenix1234]

The sinner here is Cameron

Carr is a hypocrite, but Cameron seeks to make tax a moral issue. That is a very slippery slope and shows what a vote chasing buffoon the man is - see article HERE at:

TomWinnifrith.com

 

[RoaminRog]

Immoral Tax?

I wouldn't normally involve myself in a discussion about somebody elses tax affairs, but if David Cameron is prepared to open the bag marked 'morality' on television, perhaps he would like to publicly explain why all Governments in living memory feel they have the moral right to be downright GREEDY when it comes to Fuel Duty. Perhaps they would care to show us their moral side now that it has been shown that fuel prices are rising at a greater rate in the UK than anywhere else in Europe.

 

[Dezi]

This level of debate on this topic is rapidly going downhill, but before I withdraw & go elsewhere I cannot let the slur that all mankind is greedy & selfish go unchallenged.
I ain't & I know a lot of others who ain't.

I have absolutely no interest in amassing more money, or position or goods than I currently have & that has been the way of it for the past 20 years.

Like many others who use this forum we also do our bit to put something back into the local society via charity work, I am retired so why wouldn’t I. I also believe that this attitude is far more typical of the average person in the street than the one that John & a few others try to put about.

Greed, selfishness, certainly plenty of that about, and it has definitely increased since the 80s “with its more is good manta & there is no such thing as society” statement by the prime minister of the day,
but please do not judge the whole of mankind by the I am all right jack money grabbing minority.

Dezi c:

 

[John H]

This level of debate on this topic is rapidly going downhill, but before I withdraw & go elsewhere I cannot let the slur that all mankind is greedy & selfish go unchallenged.
I ain't & I know a lot of others who ain't.

I have absolutely no interest in amassing more money, or position or goods than I currently have & that has been the way of it for the past 20 years.

Like many others who use this forum we also do our bit to put something back into the local society via charity work, I am retired so why wouldn’t I. I also believe that this attitude is far more typical of the average person in the street than the one that John & a few others try to put about.

Greed, selfishness, certainly plenty of that about, and it has definitely increased since the 80s “with its more is good manta & there is no such thing as society” statement by the prime minister of the day,
but please do not judge the whole of mankind by the I am all right jack money grabbing minority.

Dezi c:

Greed and selfishness aren't limited to the obvious, Dezi. Who among us would not put our family first in any situation? Who would not steal if their children were starving? Who has not bought goods on the continent because there is less tax on them? Who would not fight to keep what they have got (whether it is doctors and their pensions or a starving man and a biscuit)? Who would open up our borders to all the world's poor? You could say that selfishness is part of the survival instinct and is therefore a good thing. What annoys me about some of the postings on this thread is the holier than thou attitude in which people are willing to blame others for characteristics that they would display themselves in a similar situation. The point I have been trying to make - maybe clumsily - is that I am fed up with people blaming somebody else.

 

[Northerner]

Carr is a hypocrite, but Cameron seeks to make tax a moral issue. That is a very slippery slope and shows what a vote chasing buffoon the man is - see article HERE at:

TomWinnifrith.com

Oh, so some blogger whom we've never heard of says so, so it must be true? And a 'vote catching buffoon'? I'd love to see you engage in debate with Cameron, him with his First from Oxford and you with your..............?

I didn't see the statement that he made as I was travelling that day but am I wrong in understanding that Cameron did not actually make a statement as such, but answered a question from a member of the news media, during a press conference that was on a totally different matter? Can you imagine the result if he had refused to answer the question? You'd all be whinging now about him evading the question or actually supporting tax avoiders. Give the man a break, he was thinking on his feet and answered the question. He may be prime minister but he's entitled to voice his opinion.

 

[Northerner]

If i had the oppertunity to start all over again (career) I would have to take a long hard look at being a politician, they can take the moral high ground when it suits them, good salary, excellent pension scheme.

Ok, most will be in the higher tax bracket, but, they can claim a fair bit back in expences!!!

I cant

Then why don't you? You'll need a good degree, be able to persuade a constituency that you're the right man, work your bollocks off trying to get elected and then lose the job after four years if you're unlucky. You may even have to take a massive drop in salary. And I promise you, with your home where ever it is and having to live and work in London for half the year, if you didn't have expenses, most of your salary would all be spent on travelling, dining and accommodation. But what the hell, never let any facts get in the way of good anti-politician rant.

 

[John H]

I didn't see the statement that he made as I was travelling that day but am I wrong in understanding that Cameron did not actually make a statement as such, but answered a question from a member of the news media, during a press conference that was on a totally different matter? Can you imagine the result if he had refused to answer the question? You'd all be whinging now about him evading the question or actually supporting tax avoiders. Give the man a break, he was thinking on his feet and answered the question. He may be prime minister but he's entitled to voice his opinion.

An intelligent response in the circumstances you describe would have been to say that he didn't comment on individual cases - especially without knowing all the facts. I would prefer to have a Prime Minister with judgement than a knee-jerker but those days seem to be long-gone. Oh - and by the way, a first from Oxford doesn't make you a good debater.

Just read your second post - where on earth do you get the idea that you have to have a "good degree" to be an MP? Give me a man with conviction any day - unfortunately there aren't many left apart from dear old Dennis Skinner.

 

[Northerner]

This level of debate on this topic is rapidly going downhill, but before I withdraw & go elsewhere I cannot let the slur that all mankind is greedy & selfish go unchallenged.
I ain't & I know a lot of others who ain't.

I have absolutely no interest in amassing more money, or position or goods than I currently have & that has been the way of it for the past 20 years.

Like many others who use this forum we also do our bit to put something back into the local society via charity work, I am retired so why wouldn’t I. I also believe that this attitude is far more typical of the average person in the street than the one that John & a few others try to put about.

Greed, selfishness, certainly plenty of that about, and it has definitely increased since the 80s “with its more is good manta & there is no such thing as society” statement by the prime minister of the day,
but please do not judge the whole of mankind by the I am all right jack money grabbing minority.

Dezi c:

Some people have either very short memories are are just ignorant of the philanthropy of very many successful people who give away large percentages of the fortunes that they've been lucky enough to amass. Some are not well known and do it in private, others we all should know about. Warren Buffet $30 billion, Bill Gates $29 billion, George Soros $6 billion and in the past, Henry Ford, John Paul Getty. The list is very long. We are not all selfish and many of us end up moderately well off almost by accident. We follow a career path and it happens to work out. I give to certain charities every year to the tune of about £2000, gift aided so the charities involved also get the standard rate tax and I spent seven years on the board of a charity giving up one day a month and occasionally two.

You are right, we are not all greedy and selfish. Yes, we look after ourselves and our families, that's hard-wired into our genes, but many people are also generous and will go to great lengths to help others and not just by giving money. Just look at all the charities, of which many members are volunteers who are trying to give back to society some of the blessings that they have all received by growing up in a rich and peaceful western democracy.

I have to say that the meanest people I have ever come across are on motorhomes forums! I had never ever imagined that there can be people who will pee into bottles and defecate into free plastic bags in order to save a fraction of a penny. It's really been an eye-opener coming on here!

List of philanthropists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[John H]

Northerner, you are clearly a saint and ought to be ruling the world.

By the way, people who criticise others for a supposed lack of knowledge and then refer them to Wikipedia have probably not though it through carefully enough

 

[Dezi]

Greed and selfishness aren't limited to the obvious, Dezi. Who among us would not put our family first in any situation? Who would not steal if their children were starving? Who has not bought goods on the continent because there is less tax on them?

Who would not fight to keep what they have got (whether it is doctors and their pensions or a starving man and a biscuit)? Who would open up our borders to all the world's poor? You could say that selfishness is part of the survival instinct and is therefore a good thing. What annoys me about some of the postings on this thread is the holier than thou attitude in which people are willing to blame others for characteristics that they would display themselves in a similar situation. The point I have been trying to make - maybe clumsily - is that I am fed up with people blaming somebody else.

I would not put my family first in ANY situation,only some situations. Saving a childs life is not greedy or selfish. Buying food on the Continent ! I simply do not understand what point you are making .

If we could not buy goods / food abroad how could anybody travel ?

As for the statement "What annoys me about some of the postings on this thread is the holier than thou attitude in which people are willing to blame others for characteristics that they would display themselves in a similar situation".

then its total cobblers. Not all people display the same characteristics in a dire situation as Aung San Suu Kyi has demonstrated over many years.

Dezi c:

 

[Alf Hookham]

An intelligent response in the circumstances you describe would have been to say that he didn't comment on individual cases - especially without knowing all the facts. I would prefer to have a Prime Minister with judgement than a knee-jerker but those days seem to be long-gone. Oh - and by the way, a first from Oxford doesn't make you a good debater.

Just read your second post - where on earth do you get the idea that you have to have a "good degree" to be an MP? Give me a man with conviction any day - unfortunately there aren't many left apart from dear old Dennis Skinner.

:lol-053ennis Skinner:lol-053:
Another Arthur Scargill.
Enough said!

 

[Coolasluck]

I wouldn't normally involve myself in a discussion about somebody elses tax affairs, but if David Cameron is prepared to open the bag marked 'morality' on television, perhaps he would like to publicly explain why all Governments in living memory feel they have the moral right to be downright GREEDY when it comes to Fuel Duty. Perhaps they would care to show us their moral side now that it has been shown that fuel prices are rising at a greater rate in the UK than anywhere else in Europe.

God dont you know anything,they are doing it in the name of green issues and the environment,nothing pisses me off more than that stealth tax.Its the worst of the lot.

 

[Alf Hookham]

Pardon me as I did not bother reading every word of your diatribe (as I know what it will be).

You describe me as a leftie :rolleyes2:. Yes I admit that I am slightly left of Attila the Hun. Like Alf the Great (or should that be grate?) I have no time for the lazy, feckless and criminal. That does not mean that I would put everyone in the workhouse, jail or detention camps. The difference is that people should have the opportunity to better themselves and a good push in that direction is to make them less dependant on benefits.

You keep bragging about travelling the world. If you are trying to impress me, you are failing badly. I once reckoned up that I had been in 55 countries and then I did a few more. You have a long way to go to catch up.


What really annoys me about people with your attitude is this. I have an IQ that puts me in the top 2% of the population. It is no big deal to me but my Father was the same, a highly intelligent man who had no choice but to work for 48 years down a Coal Mine because of people like you who want to keep people in poverty, without any hope.
I am alright Jack is your real attitude. You have a shallow, nasty attitude to your fellow man and it shows on this forum.

Now go away.

Typical of you.
You accuse the man of a bitter and abusive speech and then admit to not reading it all. How daft can one person be?
You then claim to be in the top 2% of the population according to IQ!!I don't think so!
Why not read the full piece BEFORE knocking the man.
Very stupid, I would call you.

 

[John H]

1. I would not put my family first in ANY situation,only some situations. Saving a childs life is not greedy or selfish.

2. Buying food on the Continent ! I simply do not understand what point you are making .If we could not buy goods / food abroad how could anybody travel ?

3. As for the statement "What annoys me about some of the postings on this thread is the holier than thou attitude in which people are willing to blame others for characteristics that they would display themselves in a similar situation".

then its total cobblers. Not all people display the same characteristics in a dire situation as Aung San Suu Kyi has demonstrated over many years.

Dezi c:

1. Depends on your definition - in my book, selfish = putting yourself and your loved ones above others.

2. Should have said - buying stuff on the continent to bring back because the tax is less - ie saving money and denying the Exchequer. We all do it with wine; Carr did it on a larger scale, but it is only a difference of scale.

3. Don't follow this - how does the Aung San Suu Kyi bit relate to what I said about blaming others for your own faults?

 

[John H]

:lol-053ennis Skinner:lol-053:
Another Arthur Scargill.
Enough said!

Thank you for that wise and intelligent response. My wife worked in partnership with a man who was about as right-wing as they come and, as solicitor, he had to appear in front of magistrates and tribunal chairmen of all shades of opinion. He always said that appearing in front of Dennis was a pleasure because he was a gentleman, always weighed up the argument on the facts not on prejudices and took his job very seriously. You don't get higher praise than that - but of course, he's a socialist, so that makes him a person to be dismissed by the Alfs of this world.

 

[Alf Hookham]

1. Depends on your definition - in my book, selfish = putting yourself and your loved ones above others.

2. Should have said - buying stuff on the continent to bring back because the tax is less - ie saving money and denying the Exchequer. We all do it with wine; Carr did it on a larger scale, but it is only a difference of scale.

3. Don't follow this - how does the Aung San Suu Kyi bit relate to what I said about blaming others for your own faults?

Have I got this right JOHN H?
Putting your own flesh and blood above others is selfish?? Is this what you are really saying?? I would ALWAYS put my own above others. I also believe, so would every normal person who is reading this article right now. Who wouldn't?