Hymer B584 water pump and wiring problem

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Hi! More problems with my 2002 B584 water system ☹️. Could anyone send me a picture of the 5 pin relay that controls the fresh water pump? Or how their system is wired up? We have a terminal block that then connects to the relay but is this correct or a previous repair? See my pic. We've just replaced the relay thinking that was the problem but no joy. Completely stumped!
 

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If it worked previously and you've wired the new relay identically to the original then I'd say the relay isn't the problem.
 
merl said:
If it worked previously and you've wired the new relay identically to the original then I'd say the relay isn't the problem.
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It hasn't worked since we bought the van, we were told that there was a faulty microswitch the kitchen tap. Fixed that but it still doesn't work. We had a Leisure services guy come out to look at it and he couldn't figure it, so he thought it might be the relay. I'm told on another forum that a B584 doesn't have a relay just a terminal block so I don't know how that is wired up and why ours is different. Photos would be good if poss. Had the van 4 weeks and want to go away in it.
 
Trish said:
It hasn't worked since we bought the van, we were told that there was a faulty microswitch the kitchen tap. Fixed that but it still doesn't work. We had a Leisure services guy come out to look at it and he couldn't figure it, so he thought it might be the relay. I'm told on another forum that a B584 doesn't have a relay just a terminal block so I don't know how that is wired up and why ours is different. Photos would be good if poss. Had the van 4 weeks and want to go away in it.
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Most motorhomes I think have a master switch that turns power to the pump on and off even if they have a tap microswitch, so it could be that maybe?
You are looking at the problem being wiring but if the pump has never run in your ownership, are you sure the pump is actually working?
You really need to go back to basics to fix this problem rather than swapping things out that *could* be wrong (ANYTHING *could* be at fault).
Have you got 12V at the pump? what exactly did the 'Leisure Services' guy find that was not working (apart from overall not working)? Ok, he couldn't figure it out, but he must have left out with some information on what he found?
 
As always remote diagnosis is tricky and we need some more information.
1) Any chance of
a) A photo of the face of the relay with the pins on.
b) Notes of where the wires go to if you can work any of them out
c) A model number of the relay.

2)At least one of the wires should have a fuse. Trace each wire back as far as you can to see if you can find any.

3)It helps to know if you have a pressure system or micro switched taps.
3a)Trace the water pipe from the tank to the pump. Can you find a water pressure switch ?
3b)Look at the bottom of all your taps, can you see any wires?


Very basic synopsis of how a relay works in case you don't know.
Apologies for the over simplification for any experts reading this.
A relay is a device that tests for a current in a (input) circuit and when it detects current closes a switch to provide power to another (output) circuit.
Usually the Output circuit is thicker wire capable of powering larger devices, but some folks use the same wire thickness so you can't rely on this.
e.g. The "input" (thin wire) terminals of the relay are in the water pressure switch circuit or the tap micro switch circuit.
When the water pressure is high this water pressure (or tap micro ) switch is open, I.e. no current flow
When the water pressure is low this switch is closed I.e. current flow

The "output" (thicker wire) terminals are in the water pump circuit.
When the relay detects a current in the pressure switch circuit it closes a switch (inside the relay box) on the "output" circuit.
i.e. provides power to the pump.
So a relay has four terminals :- two on the input circuit and two on the output circuit.
However, many terminals have a fifth terminal. For some applications this has a specific purpose but usually it isn't used. (but manufacturers just find it cheaper than making two different types of relay.
 
Potentially trying to diagnose remotely why something is not working with minimal information provided is going to be virtually impossible when someone who presumably knows 'stuff' about motorhome electrics (the 'leisure services guy') was physically there and couldn't sus it out.

Also, you said "More problems with my 2002 B584 water system"? what were the previous problems? recapping the full story might be useful to help someone trying to assist.
Sorry if I am appearing a bit negative here, but it you are looking for help you need to provide as much information and background as possible.
 
Trish said:
Hi! More problems with my 2002 B584 water system ☹️. Could anyone send me a picture of the 5 pin relay that controls the fresh water pump? Or how their system is wired up? We have a terminal block that then connects to the relay but is this correct or a previous repair? See my pic. We've just replaced the relay thinking that was the problem but no joy. Completely stumped!
Click to expand...
My 2002 Hymer584 doesn't have a relay, the wiring colours in the picture you posted is original but the relay isn't and I cannot understand why anyone would fit one there, the water pump certainly doesn't need a relay , my van is 120 miles away but luckily a few weeks ago I removed the water pump to change the water pipe, I took a picture of the wiring block before I removed the pump, I take pictures of all wiring before I remove anything because Hymer are a rule unto themselves with the wiring colours :LOL:

20240831_120728.jpg


I would replace the connectors on your wiring and fit a new connection block as well, there is a lot of corrosion on the ones in the picture
 
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My way is very simplistic but it is how I did my self build but it does work.

You need fused power cable to a switch which turns the pump on & off, a cable to the + side of the pump and a cable from the - side of the pump to known earth, with the switch in the on position it will work if the pump is functional.

Not seeing the van does make it more difficult.

If it has switches on the taps, these may negate the method I use, they are often going wrong and I'd never use them.

I would fit a simple Shurflo pressure operated pump, but of course you may already have one fitted and it's wired via the tap switches, get around that by simply following my method and disconnecting the tap switches and using the direct wiring above


With an old van it could have been messed with by countless people with very little knowledge due to how it was manufactured, I go by one wire = one job.
 
As you now have a pic of the original Hymer wiring, and your pic seems to show matching colour coding albeit an altered fashion, I would remove the relay and the terminal block and reconnect the wiring as per Tezza33's pic. If that doesn't solve it at least you know that part is now correct before you start fault finding elsewhere in the wiring looms.
 
Trish said:
Hi! More problems with my 2002 B584 water system ☹️.
Click to expand...

Trish,
By now you will have gathered that there isn't only one way that water pumps are wired up and therefore we can not give a simple single answer for your situation.

There a lot of people trying to help you but you aren't answering questions that we ask.
If you still want our help please answer the questions.

If you have fixed the problems or you are going to take it to a professional and no longer need us ... please let us know.
 
Tezza33 said:
My 2002 Hymer584 doesn't have a relay, the wiring colours in the picture you posted is original but the relay isn't and I cannot understand why anyone would fit one there, the water pump certainly doesn't need a relay , my van is 120 miles away but luckily a few weeks ago I removed the water pump to change the water pipe, I took a picture of the wiring block before I removed the pump, I take pictures of all wiring before I remove anything because Hymer are a rule unto themselves with the wiring colours :LOL:

View attachment 135213

I would replace the connectors on your wiring and fit a new connection block as well, there is a lot of corrosion on the ones in the picture
Click to expand...
Thank you @Tezza33The pic was very useful. We've wired ours up the same as your pic and it has made the pump run continuously which now suggests there is a microswitch asking for water. At least we know the wiring is correct so we can move on. Kitchen tap is new. Bathroom tap switch clicks clearly but the shower switch is different and doesn't click like the others. Don't know where the toilet one is 🤷‍♂️.
I feel like we've got somewhere but not completely sorted. Now to find a supplier for a new microswitch.....
 
r4dent said:
Trish,
By now you will have gathered that there isn't only one way that water pumps are wired up and therefore we can not give a simple single answer for your situation.

There a lot of people trying to help you but you aren't answering questions that we ask.
If you still want our help please answer the questions.

If you have fixed the problems or you are going to take it to a professional and no longer need us ... please let us know.
Click to expand...
Sorry, we are taking on board all your replies and working through them. I really do appreciate all your help. See my reply to Tezza33 - we are getting somewhere now we know the wiring is correct, there were just too many variables before as we didn't know if the wiring was correct and indeed it wasnt! We've removed the relay, although i have read that the relay takes the wear off the microswitches 🤷‍♂️. At least now we can test the other components. Once it's working I'll update, (after a celebratory wine! 🤣)
 
Trish said:
Thank you @Tezza33The pic was very useful. We've wired ours up the same as your pic and it has made the pump run continuously which now suggests there is a microswitch asking for water. At least we know the wiring is correct so we can move on. Kitchen tap is new. Bathroom tap switch clicks clearly but the shower switch is different and doesn't click like the others. Don't know where the toilet one is 🤷‍♂️.
I feel like we've got somewhere but not completely sorted. Now to find a supplier for a new microswitch.....
Click to expand...

The reed switch for the toilet is located in the cassette housing and accessible when the cassette is removed.
 
Pudsey Bear said:
My way is very simplistic but it is how I did my self build but it does work.

You need fused power cable to a switch which turns the pump on & off, a cable to the + side of the pump and a cable from the - side of the pump to known earth, with the switch in the on position it will work if the pump is functional.

Not seeing the van does make it more difficult.

If it has switches on the taps, these may negate the method I use, they are often going wrong and I'd never use them.

I would fit a simple Shurflo pressure operated pump, but of course you may already have one fitted and it's wired via the tap switches, get around that by simply following my method and disconnecting the tap switches and using the direct wiring above


With an old van it could have been messed with by countless people with very little knowledge due to how it was manufactured, I go by one wire = one job.
Click to expand...
Absolutely true 😂
 
Trish said:
We've removed the relay,
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🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

Don't panic Mr Mainwaring but ..removing a relay without knowing why it was installed is not recommended.

I have produced a document that contains wiring diagrams; explains relays and gives a reason why people fit relays into the water pump circuit.
If they fitted a relay for this reason reverting to a circuit without the relay could result in a fire!

I

Relays and waterpumps

Somewher between Dummy's Guide and Doctoral Thesis
wildcamping.co.uk wildcamping.co.uk
 
It is possible the previous owner couldn't find out why the pump was constantly running so he fitted the relay and operated it from a switch somewhere, I would prefer it to work as it should if it was mine
 
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