Tyres

They do however advise against fitting summer tyres on one axle, and winter tyres on the other axle
So, you go to the garage for 2 new all weather tyres on the front and they advise you to put 2 new tyres on the rear as well even though it's not a legal requirement? And you feel that advice is for purely safety based reasons without any hint of bias towards making a bigger sale?
Forgive me Colin but if you genuinely think that kind of advice is PURELY for the customers benefit then, well.... Nuff said. Just watch out for those emails from the Prince of Zimbabwe who needs help moving his money.😏
❤️🤗
 
So, you go to the garage for 2 new all weather tyres on the front and they advise you to put 2 new tyres on the rear as well even though it's not a legal requirement? And you feel that advice is for purely safety based reasons without any hint of bias towards making a bigger sale?
Forgive me Colin but if you genuinely think that kind of advice is PURELY for the customers benefit then, well.... Nuff said. Just watch out for those emails from the Prince of Zimbabwe who needs help moving his money.😏
❤️🤗
As I've repeatedly posted when changing tyres of the same type tyre manufacturers are perfectly happy to advise that you only need to change two, yet you are totaly ignoring this. And as I've repeated posted, I've experienced the problems of having two different season tyres on a car and found that in certain conditions it is a recipe for disaster.
 
As I've repeatedly posted when changing tyres of the same type tyre manufacturers are perfectly happy to advise that you only need to change two, yet you are totaly ignoring this. And as I've repeated posted, I've experienced the problems of having two different season tyres on a car and found that in certain conditions it is a recipe for disaster.
Well swerved👍
 
As I've posted several times on this thread, tyre companies are happy to advise that people can fit different summer tyres with different tread wear on vehicles, or different winter tyres with different tread wear, so they are not out to sell people 4 tyres at a go. They do however advise against fitting summer tyres on one axle, and winter tyres on the other axle, there are very good reasons for this as the tyres react very differently in different weather conditions, after all if they didn't why would you bother with different tyres.
Now I didn't want to bring up the issue of insurance, but another member did, and as I pointed out, if investigated in a insurance claim and it was thought the tyres where a contributary factor you will need to find a 'expert witness' to counter this, well good luck with that, as I can find no advise online form tyre manufacturers or fitters that it is fine.
I took the risk and learnt the hard way just how much differance in grip there is in snow, a mistake I will not be making again.
In that link I poste Conti actually state summer tyres are unsuitable once temperatures get to 7 degrees C so I wouldn’t say they are happy for you to do anything 👍

Question for anyone who knows: years ago 70’s/80’s I don’t remember anyone having winter tyres unless they had particular uses for them. From memory I seem to recall it was for more specialist purposes. I remember fitting studded tyres once and had a play around with mud and shale tyres but back then we used to get a lot of snow around Buxton in winter. So, the question… have manufacturers changed something, pushing the consumer to needing potentially two sets of tyres in the guise of health and safety?
 
In that link I poste Conti actually state summer tyres are unsuitable once temperatures get to 7 degrees C so I wouldn’t say they are happy for you to do anything 👍

Question for anyone who knows: years ago 70’s/80’s I don’t remember anyone having winter tyres unless they had particular uses for them. From memory I seem to recall it was for more specialist purposes. I remember fitting studded tyres once and had a play around with mud and shale tyres but back then we used to get a lot of snow around Buxton in winter. So, the question… have manufacturers changed something, pushing the consumer to needing potentially two sets of tyres in the guise of health and safety?

I must admit I have never used Winter tyres on any vehicle and have only ever heard of them in recent years, unless it becomes law I probably never will.

M&S (Mud and Snow) tyres are made for motorcycles but I'm sure I wouldn't buy any for the very little use they would get in the UK.
 
I must admit I have never used Winter tyres on any vehicle and have only ever heard of them in recent years, unless it becomes law I probably never will.

M&S (Mud and Snow) tyres are made for motorcycles but I'm sure I wouldn't buy any for the very little use they would get in the UK.
Yeah but you are a Southern Softie Rob, other parts of the country get weather 😂😂😂
 
I must admit I have never used Winter tyres on any vehicle and have only ever heard of them in recent years, unless it becomes law I probably never will.

M&S (Mud and Snow) tyres are made for motorcycles but I'm sure I wouldn't buy any for the very little use they would get in the UK.
Winter tyres are not really suitable for much of the UK, many of those fitting them are compromising most of their driving on the off chance of a bit of very cold snowy weather, the arrival of Michelin CrossClimates changed all that, they are much more suited to UK driving conditions, most other tyre manufacturers now offer similar tyres.
 
Winter tyres are not really suitable for much of the UK, many of those fitting them are compromising most of their driving on the off chance of a bit of very cold snowy weather, the arrival of Michelin CrossClimates changed all that, they are much more suited to UK driving conditions, most other tyre manufacturers now offer similar tyres.

The problem I find with things like that Colin is that it makes people think they are invincible, or at least over confident.

I remember my daughters ex boyfriend took me out for a spin (literally) in his M3 it was Autumn and a lot of leaves on the road and he was driving too fast. I suggested that he slow down but he said "Don't worry this car has full traction control". At the next bend we spun off the road.
 
In that link I poste Conti actually state summer tyres are unsuitable once temperatures get to 7 degrees C so I wouldn’t say they are happy for you to do anything 👍

Question for anyone who knows: years ago 70’s/80’s I don’t remember anyone having winter tyres unless they had particular uses for them. From memory I seem to recall it was for more specialist purposes. I remember fitting studded tyres once and had a play around with mud and shale tyres but back then we used to get a lot of snow around Buxton in winter. So, the question… have manufacturers changed something, pushing the consumer to needing potentially two sets of tyres in the guise of health and safety?
That's exactly what happens. Manufacturers spend a lot on development and obviously want a return. It goes beyond just marketing because they will lobby and lobby until guidelines and even laws are changed.
Have visited Finland a fair amount as a kid, even in the 70's people put studded tyres on their cars in the winter, but trucks would still use the same tyres all year, drivers were given a set of chains.
M+S tyres were always considered usable as a winter tyre, as long as they had more than 5mm left, no longer now in some countries, your tyres have to be 3PMSF to meet minimum winter tyre requirements.

Anyway, I got CrossClimate+ on the car, and BFG AT2's on the van, so got all Europe covered. As far as snow goes, the BFG's are far superior to the CrossClimates, especially when you run them at 20psi :LOL:
 
The problem I find with things like that Colin is that it makes people think they are invincible, or at least over confident.

I remember my daughters ex boyfriend took me out for a spin (literally) in his M3 it was Autumn and a lot of leaves on the road and he was driving too fast. I suggested that he slow down but he said "Don't worry this car has full traction control". At the next bend we spun off the road.
I managed to spin my Celica GT4 4WD Coupe a couple of times. It wasn't generally easy to do but oddly enough both times it was after an evenings Go-karting :D
I lost the back end of my Nissan 200 SX S14 (RWD Coupe) once very shortly after I bought it, on a roundabout onto the M25. Next day was a trip to get 4 new tyres. No issues after that (y)
 
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I managed to spin my Celica GT4 4WD Coupe a couple of times. It wasn't generally easy to do but oddly enough both times it was after an evenings Go-karting :D
I lost the back end of my Nissan 200 SX (RWD Coupe) once very shortly after I bought it, on a roundabout onto the M25. Next day was a trip to get 4 new tyres. No issues after that (y)
Ohhhh, Getting back behind the wheel straight after Karting is well dodgy David!!! Amazing how your brain takes a while to shift out of 'race mode' isn't it.
Ever been on the 2 stroke Dmax karts?
 
Ohhhh, Getting back behind the wheel straight after Karting is well dodgy David!!! Amazing how your brain takes a while to shift out of 'race mode' isn't it.
Ever been on the 2 stroke Dmax karts?
Not been Karting for years :(
We should have a karting meet sometime :D There is a karting track at Knockhill... Could have a trip out there one day during a meetup at Loch Ore in Fife?
 
Not been Karting for years :(
We should have a karting meet sometime :D There is a karting track at Knockhill... Could have a trip out there one day during a meetup at Loch Ore in Fife?
Sounds like a damn fine idea to me! Be nice to put some faces to names too.
 
merl said:
If she'd have been travelling through a village at say 25 in the wet and a child stepped out in front of her then doubtless she'd stop quicker with the tyres apparently incorrectly fitted.

Don't think so at 25 in the wet going straight. I reckon even a semi incompetent could stop in a straight line with all weather tyres on the front no matter what's on the rear.

I reckon you'd have to make a deliberate effort and try really hard to step the back out at 25 in the wet.
Inexperienced driver with crap tyres on the front in an emergency stop will keep the fronts locked and slide into the child.

No mention of "going straight" in your initial comment that I replied to, but you later inserted it to suit your point? But I've seen the results of drivers losing control at lower speeds than that, and they generally haven't tried that hard at all, since the end result was never their intention to start with. There are many more variables involved than simply speed.

merl said:
Sorry but I think you just contradicted your first remark.

Not at all. Fitting the tyres with the best grip to the rear may increase the overall stopping distance, if the front tyres have less adhesion in the conditions encountered. But the vehicle will generally remain more stable in all conditions, rendering its handling safer overall, and particularly at the extremities of its capabilities, which could again be absolutely vital in an emergency situation.

But if the tyres to the rear have substantially less grip because they are more substantially worn, because they are of a different type which provides a lower level of adhesion in certain road or weather conditions due to the tread design, compound, difference in construction, different slip angles etc. there will be many occasions where the vehicle is likely to be less stable and could be downright dangerous, particularly in an emergency situation that is not the normal day to day driving conditions that the vehicle and driver normally encounter. There is no inconsistency.

You realise that all season tyres are designed to cope with a range of conditions outside of the scope of a dedicated summer or winter tyre, and as such are generally a compromise? A good summer tyre will often perform better in non-adverse conditions above about 7C. Similarly a good winter tyre will generally perform better in colder conditions. What an all season tyre is good at, is performing moderately to well in a much broader range of conditions, avoiding in some countries the legal necessity to otherwise change between summer and winter tyres at different times of the year.

From that, you may have realised that there are likely to be certain conditions in which the location of different tyres may not matter too much, but in general, in conditions where tyre adhesion is likely to be seriously affected, such as loose, slippery wet or greasy surfaces, it is generally far safer to have the tyres that will provide the best grip at the rear of the vehicle. In comparison to normal, or what are now termed summer tyres, all season tyres have a genuine performance advantage in those conditions. Their tread patter is specifically designed to perform well in those conditions, and they generally have a deeper tread, better able to disperse water and increase grip in wet conditions, compared to a summer tyre.

If you have gone to the thought and trouble of fitting all season tyres, you have obviously done it for a reason. If you can only afford two such tyres, surely it is better to fit them in the location where they provide the best advantage and greatest safety margin, in the type of conditions you probably envisaged buying them to counter? But for the maximum advantage provided by the tyres, it would be inherently safer to fit them to all of the wheels, rather than just one axle, which is generally the situation with any type of tyre.

There is no specific legal requirement, as you have said, but it is a matter of what is safest. You can legally drive a motor car on a road with only 1.6 mm of tread depth across the central three-quarters of the breadth of the tread area, and around the entire circumference. Is that as safe as having say, 3 or 4 mm of tread as a minimum across the whole breadth of the tread area? Of course it's not, and there are likely to be conditions encountered where tyres worn to their minimum legal tread depth could seriously compromise the handling of your vehicle and its safety. So as with many things, you have a choice between saying, "Well, it's legal" no matter what the outcome may be, or deciding that you want to be as safe as possible in any situation that you are likely to encounter.

If you have taken the decision to purchase all season tyres, you have probably done that for safety reasons. It surely makes sense then, to maximise their advantage if you can only afford two of them?

merl said:
I never said YOU did. As I've already explained to Colin the manufacturers and suppliers (whom you quoted as backup to your argument) will. It's going to be in there interest to sell you as many tyres as possible.
If you genuinely don't think that manufacturers and sellers don't over-egg that particular pudding then I think we're done here Deneb.
❤️🤗👍

Oh, I'm done. I can see that I'm on a hiding to nothing. I posted because if the advice I gave helps top save a life, expensive damage or even another motorhomer finding themselves in a sticky situation, it will have been worth it.

Anyone reading the thread can make their own choices and decide weather to take notice of advice given by a professional with many years of experience and qualifications in vehicle technology, including vehicle handling and tyre examination, design and technology; who has worked with similarly qualified people, had his observations and conclusions peer reviewed and has given evidence as an expert witness on many occasions in both criminal and coroners courts, or the bloke whose arguments relating to the laws of physics apparently revolve around his preference for saving money.

I won't be replying again. I have other things to get on with ;)
 
No mention of "going straight" in your initial comment that I replied to, but you later inserted it to suit your point? But I've seen the results of drivers losing control at lower speeds than that, and they generally haven't tried that hard at all, since the end result was never their intention to start with. There are many more variables involved than simply speed.



Not at all. Fitting the tyres with the best grip to the rear may increase the overall stopping distance, if the front tyres have less adhesion in the conditions encountered. But the vehicle will generally remain more stable in all conditions, rendering its handling safer overall, and particularly at the extremities of its capabilities, which could again be absolutely vital in an emergency situation.

But if the tyres to the rear have substantially less grip because they are more substantially worn, because they are of a different type which provides a lower level of adhesion in certain road or weather conditions due to the tread design, compound, difference in construction, different slip angles etc. there will be many occasions where the vehicle is likely to be less stable and could be downright dangerous, particularly in an emergency situation that is not the normal day to day driving conditions that the vehicle and driver normally encounter. There is no inconsistency.

You realise that all season tyres are designed to cope with a range of conditions outside of the scope of a dedicated summer or winter tyre, and as such are generally a compromise? A good summer tyre will often perform better in non-adverse conditions above about 7C. Similarly a good winter tyre will generally perform better in colder conditions. What an all season tyre is good at, is performing moderately to well in a much broader range of conditions, avoiding in some countries the legal necessity to otherwise change between summer and winter tyres at different times of the year.

From that, you may have realised that there are likely to be certain conditions in which the location of different tyres may not matter too much, but in general, in conditions where tyre adhesion is likely to be seriously affected, such as loose, slippery wet or greasy surfaces, it is generally far safer to have the tyres that will provide the best grip at the rear of the vehicle. In comparison to normal, or what are now termed summer tyres, all season tyres have a genuine performance advantage in those conditions. Their tread patter is specifically designed to perform well in those conditions, and they generally have a deeper tread, better able to disperse water and increase grip in wet conditions, compared to a summer tyre.

If you have gone to the thought and trouble of fitting all season tyres, you have obviously done it for a reason. If you can only afford two such tyres, surely it is better to fit them in the location where they provide the best advantage and greatest safety margin, in the type of conditions you probably envisaged buying them to counter? But for the maximum advantage provided by the tyres, it would be inherently safer to fit them to all of the wheels, rather than just one axle, which is generally the situation with any type of tyre.

There is no specific legal requirement, as you have said, but it is a matter of what is safest. You can legally drive a motor car on a road with only 1.6 mm of tread depth across the central three-quarters of the breadth of the tread area, and around the entire circumference. Is that as safe as having say, 3 or 4 mm of tread as a minimum across the whole breadth of the tread area? Of course it's not, and there are likely to be conditions encountered where tyres worn to their minimum legal tread depth could seriously compromise the handling of your vehicle and its safety. So as with many things, you have a choice between saying, "Well, it's legal" no matter what the outcome may be, or deciding that you want to be as safe as possible in any situation that you are likely to encounter.

If you have taken the decision to purchase all season tyres, you have probably done that for safety reasons. It surely makes sense then, to maximise their advantage if you can only afford two of them?



Oh, I'm done. I can see that I'm on a hiding to nothing. I posted because if the advice I gave helps top save a life, expensive damage or even another motorhomer finding themselves in a sticky situation, it will have been worth it.

Anyone reading the thread can make their own choices and decide weather to take notice of advice given by a professional with many years of experience and qualifications in vehicle technology, including vehicle handling and tyre examination, design and technology; who has worked with similarly qualified people, had his observations and conclusions peer reviewed and has given evidence as an expert witness on many occasions in both criminal and coroners courts, or the bloke whose arguments relating to the laws of physics apparently revolve around his preference for saving money.

I won't be replying again. I have other things to get on with ;)
I don't doubt that there will be advantages in some situations with 'best tyre on the rear', never said there weren't.
You have only ever pointed out the disadvantages and even after I've shown an advantageous situation (braking for the child in the village) you choose to ignore that and go back to chewing over the old ground like we're all idiots and need telling over and over again. I pointed out that the makers and sellers of tyres might not be purely philanthropic and again you skip over that because it doesn't suit your narrative.
I suggest the data which you rely on and put so much faith in isn't immediately relatable to motorhomes and their drivers. You cant transfer a data set that encompasses the whole of the driving world and simply apply that to a niche group without applying some correction factor. Your dataset will include mainly car drivers, (not directly applicable) and within those car drivers will be the young, the inexperienced, the boy racer, the would be F1 driver, the drunk or drugged, the DH in a hurry, the DH in general, the delivery guy and the school run mum. Non of these can be directly compared to the motorhome driver who'll generally be driving much slower, with more care and attention because for one they have less distraction from issues playing on their minds and have far more experience. Then we have the 4WD and the rear wheel drive, again not directly relatable. Finally many motorhomes are laid up over the winter when the weather it at its seasonal worst, not exclusive for sure but again that will skew the risk displayed in the data away from motorhomers in general.
Thus the downsides will be reduced massively from what your data suggests and what you are fixated upon BUT the upsides still remain just as strong.
You're right, if you're going to fit just one set of new tyres they need to go where they're best suited so I'll be putting ONE set of good tyres on the FRONT of my van for all the reasons above and also because that's the wheels that do the driving, contribute most to braking and of course do the steering too.
At the end make a personal jibe.
the bloke whose arguments relating to the laws of physics apparently revolve around his preference for saving money.
Now, I've no idea where the 'laws of physics' bit came from because no one has even mentioned the laws of physics but If attempted belittlement is your level Deneb then yes, please don't post again, I for one don't want to read them.
Some people here don't have a load of money, fine if you can afford to get that extra bit of safety by fitting 4 tyres when 2 will legally do, but that's not a real world option for a lot of people.
I don't for a minute believe you'll be able to resist having a pop back but believe me, now you've elected to make it personal I'm done mate.
 

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