Stung into Action - Overnight Parking

[maureenandtom]

've been stung into action by two or three other fairly recent threads.

We get people from time to time agreeing or disagreeing about how we go about the one thing we all have strong emotions about. Parking. I'm probably right in saying Overnight Parking specifically.

We're all impressed by our continental neighbours with their Aires. Most of us are impressed by the Spanish Traffic Order though at least one isn't. Almost none of us are happy with the situation in Britain, though there are pockets of sanity in parts – I'm thinking of Scotland – but official attitude in England is pretty abysmal. I have broad agreement here, yes?

We have to assume things can change. If we assume things can't change then we just have to give up. This is the way things are, live with it. I don't accept that. I have to assume things can change. That we can change things.

There are two broad methods we can try for change though there are sub-divisions within those two. There's persuasion. There's confrontation. There are different levels of both but it's not my proposition to argue that out now. Persuasion. Confrontation.

I've tried both. Persuasion. Confrontation.

Let's look first at my experience of persuasion. Well, some of it is documented for anybody to look at.. For me, mostly, it's been a matter of seeing an opportunity and then trying to exploit it. In this first example it was prompted by a television programme and by a coincidental posting on here. Here is how it went though I didn't think it right to publish everything, - names, emails and things that looked confidential. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...rings/5258-lake-district-national-park-3.html

I'd already tried with my own council as a local tax payer. Got nowhere. I thought that if I was a salesman (I'm not a salesman, I was a soldier), if I was a salesman I'd have glossy sales brochures; I'd be painting glowing pictures of how well it would go, how much money we would all make, how happy we all would be so I produced my own sales brochure. I sent it to people as a PDF file. I bound it, yes, I bound it, and posted it to people. You can see it here and if it's useful you can use it as it is or use it to produce your own. You can even tell me the concept is rubbish. Booklet for Copeland as PDF.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download


Briefly. The project went well. The Copeland tourist people were enthusiastic. They suggested places to park. They began organising meetings, (I was to be invited) they were beginning to rope in other organisations and other councils. Then they went and asked the parking people in Copeland council – that's Whitehaven in Cumbria by the way - and things just stopped. I tried a time or two to get things on track again but, no, the council parking policy was writ on stone and they had the horrors that people might sleep in their car parks overnight. Failure.

I sometimes see self-congratulatory articles here and there and sometimes it looks like there is an opportunity. I saw one published by the Yorkshire Tourist Board last Autumn so I did a little paper and sent it to them. I got a nice email back from Vikki, their Marketing Campaigns Manager. Vikki would hold meetings and keep me in the loop. Well, she hasn't done. I've heard nothing since.

This sort of thing is my experience of persuasion, I've made half a dozen attempts maybe; not too many but enough. Initial enthusiasm which then dies. I believe the enthusiasm is killed by the parking people but it could be any number of things of which the first might be that my brand of persuasion just isn't persuasive enough.

It's important not to write off persuasion but the other side of the coin is confrontation. By this I don't mean outright war though the thought of putting some of these people up against a wall has its attractions, I mean being not quite so cooperative, not quite so accepting of official rules. Perhaps a greater willingness to take risks with our legal system.

This is my one and only experience of confrontation. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/11681-long-mysterious-tale.html

We have found out very recently, though I've been pretty certain for years, that a great many “rules” are not rules. They are wish-lists. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing, on the spot when we're looking for a parking place, whether we are looking at a legally enforcible no parking notice or whether we're looking at a notice some clerk has decided to put up for no legally enforcible reason.

Anyway my experience is: persuasion nil, confrontation one.

Where do we go from here? Give up? Carry on trying? How?

 

[Kontiki]

It is baffling as to the reasons why you cannot sleep in a vehicle designed for the purpose overnight, same as you are not supposed to use your cooker on a motorway parking area?? Why, is there any more risk than somebody smoking & chucking their finished lit cigarette away. You can often park during the day & sleep but after a certain time you are required to leave, why is this suddenly 'illegal' after a certain time. I can see objections to people blatantly camping or gypsies setting up camp but just sleeping in your vehicle with nothing left outside seems to upset some people. Is it jealousy?

Don't give up but can't give any advice on what to do now. Should we organise a mass wildcamp event? If we did & blocked some local beauty spot with our vans it somehow wouldn't seem right. The only people who are interested in this issue are fellow motorhomers & nobody else seems to have any sympathy with us.

 

[Airecraft]

Confrontation! I agree that trying to rationalize with some officials is hopeless. I don't condone criminal action of any sort but confronting them over ad hoc rules is perfectly valid.
The news article about MHs parking in Bournemouth states:
"He said the large vans, some of which cost £40,000-50,000, ...."
Why is the cost relevant to not wanting to pay to stay on a camp site? Surely the upfront investment in a self-contained vehicle, a substantial proportion of which goes directly to the treasury, is the very reason why MH owners have already contributed to the economy far more than campsites . Many, if not most, purchase their MH in addition to a car so the expenditure has created jobs, HMRC revenue and exports expenditure to the region visited; a simple concept acknowledged by the French and the like.
As a formed local authority employee I know that a substantial minority of workers relish the opportunity to exercise their limited powers to inconvenience the public.
Why engage these people in the timely and tortuous process of their appeals procedures whilst their grudging responses, if forthcoming at all, are funded by the tax payer?

 

[vwalan]

all the rules are in place already to allow us to park as a car. the only change is with the authorities that continue to not follow guide lines . if they did we would not be looking how to make law and rule changes . lets just try to get authority to implement the already rules and not miss interperate them.most councillors and the police dont really look at the rules they just think thats a good idea and do it. then punish the innocent. if we were to implement eu law there is no reason what so ever to not sleep ,cook ,etc in your car . you must remember a m,home is a car . it cannot be anything else.

 

[John H]

Confrontation! I agree that trying to rationalize with some officials is hopeless. I don't condone criminal action of any sort but confronting them over ad hoc rules is perfectly valid.

Congratulations! I took several pages to say that but you have summed it up better than I ever could.

 

[Deleted member 2636]

All this might lead to an event like the MASS TRESPASS

 

[maureenandtom]

I'm getting ideas already. I'll let some of them simmer away in my mind for a while but the mass trespass idea hit my imagination right away.

The mass trespass idea was, I think, used by the CB radio enthusiasts when it was illegal to use CB. That resulted, or was instrumental in resulting, in CB being made legal. Legal but licenced but legal anyway.

Has it been used by others, does anybody know? The fuel thing about ten years ago, maybe. But as successful as the Right to Roamers and the CB people? Think of any?

JohnH, I must say, especially after our differences, nice to see your support. You can use the several pages. I welcome them. I'm a several page user myself. You do mean, on the spot confrontation, yes? I don't see much use in writing letters a month after the event. It has to be here and now - when we see the notice. Here I am, what are you going to do about it? Leave it to a letter the following day and they'll at worst lie and at best mislead.

Aire on a Shoestring. There was a group of, I think, German motorhomers in Cornwall a few years ago. A council spokeman said on a television news report exactly the same thing. They looked like the could afford campsites so why didn't they use them?

VW Alan. Can we find thse EU rules published somewhere? We have a politician here, let's use his talents to push to have these rules adopted.

Kontiki, do you remember about a year ago a Forestry Commission spokesman making stupid reasons for not letting us use their car parks, mainly, I think, that they weren't designed for motorhomes. He dropped out pretty quick. Said he was going on holiday, would be in touch when he got back but never did. I have his email address - I had two or three emails from him. We could start talking to him again. There's a thread about it. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/cumbria/6310-great-sites-lake-district-2.html and also at http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/cumbria/2313-ennerdale.html


Maybe, just maybe, there could be lots of things we can do if we put our minds to it.

 

[John H]

JohnH, I must say, especially after our differences, nice to see your support. You can use the several pages. I welcome them. I'm a several page user myself. You do mean, on the spot confrontation, yes? I don't see much use in writing letters a month after the event. It has to be here and now - when we see the notice. Here I am, what are you going to do about it? Leave it to a letter the following day and they'll at worst lie and at best mislead.

I am a great believer in never letting a point go (as you may have noticed from some of my other posts!). Once you have your case prepared then batter them with it over and over again until they do something about it just to get rid of you. What I have a problem with is the attitude of some that rules are wrong simply because they don't like them - they mouth off to no avail and with no reasoned cae behind them and thus do more harm than good. If you have a good case then stick to it, don't wander off at tangents or allow the other side to draw you off track. Stick to what you know is strong ground and keep pushing it. I will give an example to illustrate what I mean:

We all object to possibly having to pay fines for parking at supermarkets if we overstay their imposed time limits. There have been several threads about this in the past. People have advocated tearing down the signs, waffled on about lack of contracts and so on. There is a perfectly good legal case to be persued here and it is the extreme unreasonableness of the proposed penalty. Stick to your best shot, don't be distracted and you will stand a better chance of winning. Don't take my word for it - look at Martin Lewis' advice (moneyexpert.com).

Mass peaceful protest can work (look at the Poll Tax demonstrations) but you have to be very careful because it can attract elements who may detract from what you want to do and indeed take you backwards (eg the recent protests against tuition fees). I prefer individual face-to-face reasoned and focussed argument (on a mass-basis, if you see what I mean) but if anyone wanted to organise a mass protest I certainly wouldn't object and might possibly be there if it was near where I was. I've been on enough in the past!

 

[maureenandtom]

Excellent John, thank you.

I didn't thinking of blocking Trafalgar Square or marching on Downing Street. I was thinking more of a mass trespass in our vans. Find a place we believe we have a right to be (or even one we haven't), turn up in our hundreds. Defy the authorities to ticket all of us, then every one of us dispute the ticket, every one of us demand our day in court . . .

That's my sort of take on the idea. The questions I'd want answered first are already forming in my mind.

Anyway, I've already thought of an honest job for you. Suited to your particular talents I think.

 

[Kontiki]

I wouldn't mind some sort of mass wildcampout if it was properly organised. You would need to make sure you don't spoil it by making a nuisance or leaving rubbish waste water etc. otherwise we would be no better than the gipsies that cause so many problems. Where would be a likely area where a protest would have the best impact, it would need to cause a confrontation otherwise it wouldn't achieve anything. What would happen if the law got involved? Think of the hassle they could cause if they wanted - checking vehicles - documents - weights - etc. You could not afford to let the issue become anything other than the right to park overnight within your vehicle (what you do in there is up to you)
On the point of no sleeping in a vehicle overnight :idea: what if we slept in the daytime & sat up all night? Also what is overnight, if I arrive after midnight then stop it is the early hours of the morning. I think the argument should be about the right to park for 24 hours & be in the vehicle. It seems to be you can park your van anywhere you like but you can't stay in the van without breaking some kind of law/regulation (or rather somebody's interpretation of it)

I remember someone telling me where they lived there used to be free motorcycle parking on a certain car park. They decided to start charging motorcycles so a group of the organised to turn up at the car park & pay the charge but occupy all the car bays (they were paying for them after all) no cars could park. Next day charges for motorcyles was removed.

 

[John H]

Not at all. The point I was making was that some people seem to think that as individuals they can do what they like on public land regardless of the rules. The reality in our democracy is that only collectively can we change the rules. It doesn't matter whether the individual is you, me or someone else, if we can't persuade the majority to our point of view then we have to accept that we are in a minority and cannot do what we like.

Maureen and Tom - I support the idea of a mass trespass providing that we act responsibly as Kontiki points out. To make it effective, I suggest concentrating first on one particular aspect - for example somewhere that the question of "parking not camping" could be addressed (so not in defiance of parking notices but in defiance of no overnight camping notices). As I said before, choose your strongest argument and don't let anything distract from it.

 

[maureenandtom]

Right John,

This is the task I assess as not only suitable for you but ideal for you. You can do this, I know you can. You will not let it go until we have an official permission for parking. You have demonstrated the tenacity to get this done. You know the sort of people to approach. I'm not being ironic, I do believe you can research this and come up with the goods.

It's a resurrection of Tbear's efforts. Tbear won't mind; he asked for help early in the thread. Anyway, the last action was about six months ago and I think Tbear is lazing around somewhere warm just now. A quick email to him asking his permission might be respectful of his efforts so far and he may have some introductions for you..

Tbear did some wonderful work but ultimately failed when the council came up with a reason for not letting us park at a wonderful spot. It was a wonderful spot, I'm almost certain I saw it on Google Streetview. Here's Tbear's story. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/11710-english-aires-23.html

Briefly. Tbear was refused because the car park involved is plagued by anti-social behaviour.

This is not a refusal, this is an acceptance. Once we sort out the anti-social behaviour it is ours. The council gave no other reason and if this reason disappears then any other reason which appears is just an excuse and we are entitled to ask for the real reason. And why we were not told the real reason at the time. There was talk of a height barrier. Why? What sort of anti-social behaviour will that cure? If there is one, have it taken down. It will have been a waste of tax-payer's money.

If I was to take on this task, I would begin by asking the Chief Constable, by personal email, why he tolerates no-go areas on his patch. I would pressure whatever civilian liaison committee exists too. Simultaneously.

But there you are. The job is yours. What help do you need, if any?

 

[John H]

Right John,

This is the task I assess as not only suitable for you but ideal for you. You can do this, I know you can. You will not let it go until we have an official permission for parking. You have demonstrated the tenacity to get this done. You know the sort of people to approach. I'm not being ironic, I do believe you can research this and come up with the goods.

It's a resurrection of Tbear's efforts. Tbear won't mind; he asked for help early in the thread. Anyway, the last action was about six months ago and I think Tbear is lazing around somewhere warm just now. A quick email to him asking his permission might be respectful of his efforts so far and he may have some introductions for you..

Tbear did some wonderful work but ultimately failed when the council came up with a reason for not letting us park at a wonderful spot. It was a wonderful spot, I'm almost certain I saw it on Google Streetview. Here's Tbear's story. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/11710-english-aires-23.html

Briefly. Tbear was refused because the car park involved is plagued by anti-social behaviour.

This is not a refusal, this is an acceptance. Once we sort out the anti-social behaviour it is ours. The council gave no other reason and if this reason disappears then any other reason which appears is just an excuse and we are entitled to ask for the real reason. And why we were not told the real reason at the time. There was talk of a height barrier. Why? What sort of anti-social behaviour will that cure? If there is one, have it taken down. It will have been a waste of tax-payer's money.

If I was to take on this task, I would begin by asking the Chief Constable, by personal email, why he tolerates no-go areas on his patch. I would pressure whatever civilian liaison committee exists too. Simultaneously.

But there you are. The job is yours. What help do you need, if any?

The problem with your suggestion is in the sentence "the car park involved is plagued by anti-social behaviour". That is not a good slogan if you want to set up a mass protest. I for one would not want to make that the target if, whatever the council says, none of our fraternity wanted to use it because of that anti-social behaviour. Far from working in our favour, the lack of use of the spot by motorhomers would give the "anti" lobby ammunition. We first have to choose a spot that we can get as many as possible of the wildcamping community to support. Somewhere that is convenient for large numbers of people to get to; somewhere there are "no camping" notices; somewhere that people would want to reclaim because it is not plagued by anti-social behaviour or other hindrances and somehwere we could get maximum publicity (no campaign ever succeeds if it can't attract headlines). I have no particular place in mind but I throw the question out to the wider community. Does anyone know of such a spot that could accomodate (hopefully) large numbers of motorhomers?

 

[maureenandtom]

I wasn't thinking of having a rally there. I was thinking you could continue where TBear left off. However, I'd love it if you continue to put thoughts into a protest and I think they're probably the same sort of thoughts as I would have had.

My thoughts for you had nothing at all to do with any mass protest. I haven't put much thought into that yet but will eventually. There'd be a lot to do first. For example, we'd need to have a mass. We'd have to find out how many people would be prepared to take this sort of action. Then plan it. I think that is very much a long term project. I don't think we could get it planned for this year, not the sort of thing to be planned over a weekend.

No, I think you could research TBear's old plan, talk to TBear about it and use your knowledge and skills to carry it on. I think you have a good chance of success.

Have you read through his thread again?

 

[John H]

I wasn't thinking of having a rally there. I was thinking you could continue where TBear left off. However, I'd love it if you continue to put thoughts into a protest and I think they're probably the same sort of thoughts as I would have had.

My thoughts for you had nothing at all to do with any mass protest. I haven't put much thought into that yet but will eventually. There'd be a lot to do first. For example, we'd need to have a mass. We'd have to find out how many people would be prepared to take this sort of action. Then plan it. I think that is very much a long term project. I don't think we could get it planned for this year, not the sort of thing to be planned over a weekend.

No, I think you could research TBear's old plan, talk to TBear about it and use your knowledge and skills to carry it on. I think you have a good chance of success.

Have you read through his thread again?

I don't know the area concerned. Tbear has obviously put a lot of effort into it. He gives the impression of being a competent and logical thinker. How could I add anything? I think that the best way forward is to find out what sort of support a mass protest would get and then move forward on that. Whether or not anyone is interested in a mass protest, presumably we will all continue to fight injustice on an individual basis in areas we do know. But if anyone thinks I might be able to help with such things as who to approach and what kind of approach to make then I am very willing to offer whatever experience I have.