Slightly bizarre...

[Bushtrekker]

I own a camper, pay road tax and insurance to put it on the road and in none of the paperwork associated with this process does it say that the road tax and insurance only apply if I drive and park the vehicle. but don't apply if I sleep in it. This being the case, can someone give me a valid and legal reason why I shouldn't park my camper anywhere where there are no parking restrictions and where I am not causing an obstruction and go to sleep in it?

 

[tafka]

Bearing in mind that, in being a member, I agree with the aim of your argument.......

I have a driving licence of a certain vintage, which allows me to drive minibuses and tow trailers. However, nowhere does it say that I can't pilot a Soyuz to the ISS. I phoned Russia, but they just told me that there were separate laws in place which DID exclude me from doing so. Who knew?

There's a classic principle of law, where a piece of legislation fails to provide for all possible eventualities; eventually, once these start to appear in the Daily mail, they're mopped up either by amendments or by separate Acts. Unfortunately, the fact that road tax legislation may or may not prohibit wild camping has no effect on other legislation which may positively do so.

I'd also like to rain on the parades that are the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the principle of an egalitarian society.

The Grinch

 

[caspar]

By Laws? Although there may not be parking restrictions, there may be other restrictions which prevent you sleeping in the vehicle overnight lawfully.

 

[Somelier]

Bearing in mind that, in being a member, I agree with the aim of your argument.......

I have a driving licence of a certain vintage, which allows me to drive minibuses and tow trailers. However, nowhere does it say that I can't pilot a Soyuz to the ISS. I phoned Russia, but they just told me that there were separate laws in place which DID exclude me from doing so. Who knew?

There's a classic principle of law, where a piece of legislation fails to provide for all possible eventualities; eventually, once these start to appear in the Daily mail, they're mopped up either by amendments or by separate Acts. Unfortunately, the fact that road tax legislation may or may not prohibit wild camping has no effect on other legislation which may positively do so.

I'd also like to rain on the parades that are the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the principle of an egalitarian society.

The Grinch

Since you intimate that the tooth fairy and Santa Claus don't exist, I have to cast doubt on the truth of the rest of your post.:wacko:

 

[Bushtrekker]

I'm not trying to start an argument, just pointing out the obvious.

Councils often put restrictions on laybys for other reasons, such as stamping out what is euphemistically called 'Anti-Social behaviour', such as dogging. Unfortunately these impact on people who want to park up for the night and I'm sure no council officer would go out of their way to target lorry drivers as it is a legal requirement for them to stop when their hours are up, so any office trying to stop this would be on a sticky wicket. The point of my post is that outside of laybys, on a road which is wide enough to allow parking a motor home without causing an obstruction, there is no law which prohibits parking and sleeping in your motorhome. Obviously common sense has to prevail, I live in a small cul de sac which would soon clog up if I parked outside my house, but there are plenty of roads which are large enough to accommodate motor homes with no restrictions.

 

[Bushtrekker]

Inter- stellar parking restrictions now in place.

Bearing in mind that, in being a member, I agree with the aim of your argument.......

I have a driving licence of a certain vintage, which allows me to drive minibuses and tow trailers. However, nowhere does it say that I can't pilot a Soyuz to the ISS. I phoned Russia, but they just told me that there were separate laws in place which DID exclude me from doing so. Who knew?

I've just heard that they've painted double yellow lines round Mars in case someone wants to park their space station there:lol-049:

 

[tafka]

Since you intimate that the tooth fairy and Santa Claus don't exist, I have to cast doubt on the truth of the rest of your post.:wacko:

Classic - the tooth fairy and Santa Claus are believable, but the principle of an egalitarian society (where, incidentally, we'd be left to do our own thing) is obviously just stretching it a bit too far!

 

[John H]

I own a camper, pay road tax and insurance to put it on the road and in none of the paperwork associated with this process does it say that the road tax and insurance only apply if I drive and park the vehicle. but don't apply if I sleep in it. This being the case, can someone give me a valid and legal reason why I shouldn't park my camper anywhere where there are no parking restrictions and where I am not causing an obstruction and go to sleep in it?

Good post - it is not commonly understood that there is no right to park on the street for ANY vehicle. Technically they are all creating an obstruction and could be moved. In practice, of course, the police take a common sense attitude and are only interested in parked vehicles that are causing a genuine obstruction. So, providing you park sensibly the police are not interested. What you then do in the vehicle, away from the public gaze, is also of no interest.

Similarly, there is no law that prohibits sleeping in vehicles (unless you are driving at the time!). It is, however, possible for local authorities to pass by-laws prohibiting overnight sleeping but, because the process can be very time consuming and expensive, most don't bother with by-laws and try to discourage the practice by putting up "deterrent" notices. As has been said many times on this forum, such notices have no legal backing - so, as Sid James might have said,"carry on sleeping"! :wave:

 

[Bongo]

It seems to be an impossible law to enforce. If I am inside my vehicle sleeping, how would the enforcement officer(s) know I was asleep? They would have to get my attention by knocking on the outside of the vehicle. That would wake me up! Therefore, at the moment of contact with the officer(s), I would be awake! Ergo, not asleep and, therefore unable to prove beyond reasonable doubt I was breaking any by-law...which, in this case seems to be the proverbial 'ass.'

 

[fairytooth]

Since you intimate that the tooth fairy and Santa Claus don't exist, I have to cast doubt on the truth of the rest of your post.:wacko:

And I can definitely vouch for the fact I exist !!!

A basic premise our British laws is that any action is permitted by an individual if it is not expressly forbidden (eg by an Act of Parliament, legitimate By-law, etc.) Councils cannot just make their own laws as they think fit.

On the other hand under our Constitutional Law, a Local Authority (eg Council, Highways, etc.) may ONLY act within the powers expressly given to them. Where they step outside that law and randonly do things just because they think they might be a good idea (eg putting up No Overnight Parking signs which have no force of law) they are actually breaking the law themselves. This known as acting 'Ultra Vires'. Beyond their remit.

There are plenty of case example in English Law where this has been done and the Authority has been punished.

 

[John H]

On the other hand under our Constitutional Law, a Local Authority (eg Council, Highways, etc.) may ONLY act within the powers expressly given to them. Where they step outside that law and randonly do things just because they think they might be a good idea (eg putting up No Overnight Parking signs which have no force of law) they are actually breaking the law themselves. This known as acting 'Ultra Vires'. Beyond their remit.

There are plenty of case example in English Law where this has been done and the Authority has been punished.

I would be extremely interested to know of any case where local authorities have been punished for putting up "deterrent" signs on land that is under their control, because it is not illegal for them to say they disapprove of overnighting on their property.

 

[fairytooth]

For the avoidance of confusion, I meant there are plenty of examples of Authorities being punished for acting Ultra Vires. I do not know of any specific cases in relation to Overnighting signs however.

But some interesting reading here if you have time http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?144328-Putting-a-Council-or-Officer-on-notice-for-acting-ultra-vires-regarding-issuing-unlawfull-penalties..

 

[sean rua]

Bushtrekker,

In answer to your request for the laws that forbid the activities that you ask about, I think this has been gone over a hundred times and more in various places.

The reality is, I regret to say, that laws which fall generally under the labels "Planning, Environmental Protection, and National Security, plus a whole bunch based on Land ownership and the defence of private property,
do allow the Authorities to outlaw things when it suits them.

As an ex-military man, you will, I'm sure, be aware of the restrictions placed on folk because of National Security. The reasons why "unvetted" visitors would not be allowed to park up willynilly in "sensitive areas" would be obvious to a man of your calibre, I'd say.

From personal experience, I can inform the forum that there are laws - laws tested in the High Court in London - that forbid a man to "habitate" ( including all the normal human things we do) on his, legally held, own, private land.

When we then move onto even less secure areas such as the public highways or commons ( once a haven), we find that the exclusion orders are almost 100% and, in many, many, cases supported by "locals" in that area.:sad:

This, sadly, is the grim reality of modern day Britain and Ireland. In the meantime, I wish you all good luck and hope you really make the best of it and enjoy it while you can! :scooter:


sean rua.

 

[Canalsman]

Good post - it is not commonly understood that there is no right to park on the street for ANY vehicle. Technically they are all creating an obstruction and could be moved. In practice, of course, the police take a common sense attitude and are only interested in parked vehicles that are causing a genuine obstruction. So, providing you park sensibly the police are not interested.

Technically this may be the case. However, a quick perusal of the Highway Code here Waiting and parking (238-252) : Directgov - Travel and transport makes it quite clear that although there are places where, and conditions under which, you may not park, in the majority of instances it is permittted (legal?) for you to park your vehicle.

 

[John H]

Technically this may be the case. However, a quick perusal of the Highway Code here Waiting and parking (238-252) : Directgov - Travel and transport makes it quite clear that although there are places where, and conditions under which, you may not park, in the majority of instances it is permittted (legal?) for you to park your vehicle.

Sensible parking (ie without obviously obstructing anybody else's use of the road) is, of course, tolerated but if the police decide to move you on then there is little point in claiming your "rights" because in this case there is no absolute right and the police can always find several reasons for getting at you if you annoy them. I made the point to illustrate that it is always best to be polite and discrete rather than to confront if the authorities attempt to move you on. On the rare occasions I have been approached by the police while wilding I have invited them to share a cup of coffee. I have only twice been moved on (once in Spain and once in Greece) and in both cases, because I was polite, I was given an alternative place nearby to spend the night. Yet I have witnessed others being aggressive and being told that if they were here when the police returned then they would be done (if only for a faulty light etc). Police are human beings too - just think how you would react in such a situation.