Problem with calor gas pressure in 4.5Kg bottles and more issues.......

[magpus]

Hello all,
I am back with further issues and my problems with gas.
That's motorhome gas and not the other sort!!

We bought our used van with a gaslo solution.
2 x yellow cylinders refillable.
The places near us all stopped doing lpg and so we thought we would have a half and half solution.
One blue bottle and a yellow refillable.

The guy that does hab checks and fits gaslo fitted for us and sold our second yellow and knocked some off the price and got as an old empty 4.5k blue.

I found a place near us that did the blue 4.5 k and went to exchange or whatever its classed as.

All appeared fine, but switched on heating and gas hob and fridge one day and fault code on panel. E212H
As far as I can remember this is to do with not getting enough gas and when we had a similar code when we bought the van, Marquis might be the gas that's low.

So, I thought, maybe the new blue gas bottle is an empty that I had by mistake. I have never done any gas stuff so I weighed the bottle and it was around 10Kg from memory, which I believe is full.

From there I tried just the gaslo bottle and that seemed fine. I could run everything A OK, leading me back to thinking it was something with the 4.5k bottle.
As there is bugger all room in the locker, hence the small 4.5K bottle with the gaslo one, previously, I hadn't noticed the gauge at the back. With the gaslo bottle it was showing well into the green. On the blue 4.5k it was barely registering in the green, again leading me to think there was an issue with the bottle or possibly hoses or the parts further on.

I contacted the fitter and asked him about it and he said it's possibly a fault but when back near us, he would pop in.

Anyway, he popped in and tried some things and worked it back to the cylinder itself. He opened the valve outside and the pressure coming out was all over the place.
When he opened his test cylinder there was considerable difference in the pressure.
He attached his test cylinder where my blue 4.5k was and everything worked fine, once again narrowing it down to the 4.5k bottle.

SO, I went back to Does in Ulting where it came from.
He was not a motorhome man but exchanged. Once out of the cage, he asked me if I wanted to try it. I opened the valve and once again pressure was all over the place. I then tried a third one and although the pressure appeared constant, it was not the full rush that I had seen with the fitter's cylinder.

As it was peeing down with rain, I didn't want to get even wetter and headed home with the third cylinder. Now the weather has cleared, I have just attached and lo and behold, it's just the bloody same. I put the heating on and the gas hob and as soon as the heating clicked in you could see the flame drop and the error code showed on the panel.

I just have no idea what to think.
Is there some sort of difference in pressures?
SHould a 4.5k cylinder work my gas appliances?

If anyone has any ideas, I would be very grateful.

 

[Markd]

Blue is butane autogas is propane.
Propane gives higher pressure for same ambient pressure.
If it was a bit cold then your butane might not be man enough.
You could have exchanged the empty blue for a red propane.
Personally I've gone for 6kg Calorlite as back up cylinder.
I think calor will give 6kg bottle in exchange for 4.5 kg a d gas price is better - however 6kg just don't seem to be available at the moment.

Here's a screenshot of relative vapour pressures - temp is Fahrenheit.
At 60⁰ propane gives 8x vapour pressure of butane. Of course this is still more than the regulator needs but the evaporation rate is slower as you saw with comparison bottles.
Come warmer weather the butane will be ok and when it's all gone you can change to propane again.

It's a bit disappointing that your fitter didn't really understand what he was doing.
Hob, heating and fridge is a lot of gas and it's not surprising that a small butane couldn't deliver enough.
If you look at the performance of different bottle sizes you'll see the small bottles have much lower draw off capacities - see below.

 

[Driventemple]

Do you use a different regulator with each bottle? Is the regulator faulty/

 

[Markd]

On board 30mb regulator will work with both gases but tails will be different.
The answer was in the post -'it was peeing down' - so low temperature probably under 15C - whilst 30mb is only 0.5psi and bottle pressure 5-6 psi the draw off rate would have been too low for both heater and hob together.

I just cant understand any professiional fitter putting butane on a motorhome - still he got a nice gaslow bottle to sell on, passed off an old empty 4.5kg bottle and got paid

 

[r4dent]

whoops

 

[magpus]

Thankyou for your replies.
Attached should be the gas locker as it is inside with the gauge and a previous one with the gaslo bottles.
The trouble is, being a van, the gas locker inside is super tight and with a bed above there is no more room.
The sticker on the door, which I can't quite remember, does have the original gas bottle sizes I think.
I'll have to go and check again.

The van itself, when working, is great but I just don't know who to trust, apart from you people.
Marquis are terrible for aftersales and originally told me AFTER I purchased that there should be a metal lined locker by law.
The hab check I had done failed due to it not having a metal lined gas locker, which I have found out from gaslo is NOT correct.
Gaslo then put me in touch with one of their fitters who has now changed the yellow bottle for blue and now you nice impartial people are telling me that shouldn't have been done on a blue.

Argggggggg! B-)

 

[magpus]

Blue is butane autogas is propane.
Propane gives higher pressure for same ambient pressure.
If it was a bit cold then your butane might not be man enough.
You could have exchanged the empty blue for a red propane.
Personally I've gone for 6kg Calorlite as back up cylinder.
I think calor will give 6kg bottle in exchange for 4.5 kg a d gas price is better - however 6kg just don't seem to be available at the moment.

Here's a screenshot of relative vapour pressures - temp is Fahrenheit.
At 60⁰ propane gives 8x vapour pressure of butane. Of course this is still more than the regulator needs but the evaporation rate is slower as you saw with comparison bottles.
Come warmer weather the butane will be ok and when it's all gone you can change to propane again.

It's a bit disappointing that your fitter didn't really understand what he was doing.
Hob, heating and fridge is a lot of gas and it's not surprising that a small butane couldn't deliver enough.
If you look at the performance of different bottle sizes you'll see the small bottles have much lower draw off capacities - see below.View attachment 97292

Thankyou. Goes WAY over my head but I am learning

 

[magpus]

Do you use a different regulator with each bottle? Is the regulator faulty/

It's as the pictures on the post above. I think that's one regulator with both hoses going into it.
When the gas guy connected his bottle to where the blue bottle now is, all was fine so this makes me belive that reg and all parts are ok and it's either it shouldn't be blue or I have had 3 screwy blue 4.5 K gas bottles.
When the valve was opened outside there was not a rush of gas out of the valve. It was slow and then rushed and then slowed to almost a stop.

 

[magpus]

On board 30mb regulator will work with both gases but tails will be different.
The answer was in the post -'it was peeing down' - so low temperature probably under 15C - whilst 30mb is only 0.5psi and bottle pressure 5-6 psi the draw off rate would have been too low for both heater and hob together.

I just cant understand any professiional fitter putting butane on a motorhome - still he got a nice gaslow bottle to sell on, passed off an old empty 4.5kg bottle and got paid

So in your opinion, what I saw with the gas bottle varying it's flow when valve opened outside around 10 degrees c. Is that what you would expect ??

 

[Canalsman]

Don't get bogged down in the technicalities.

Blue butane cylinders are not suitable for use at low ambient temperatures, and that includes now when it is allegedly Spring.

Change to a red propane cylinder and you will fix the problem.

The connections to blue and red cylinders are different to prevent inadvertent use of the wrong gas. So you will need to change or have changed the pigtail, the hose that connects the cylinder to the regulator.

 

[Markd]

I've never opened a bottle fully but at low temperatures you will get less and possibly erratic flow from butane.
The 'test' bottle your fitter used was probably much warmer than yours which is why it seemed ok.

Canalsman is right you need to go back to all propane and I'd expect the fitter to do it free as what he did isn't fit for purpose. It's just a matter of changing the pigtail anyway.
With a propane pigtails you can use either the small 3.7kg bottle the same size as your blue or 13kg.
I think you have room for the big bottle as the locker frame has a high side to get it in.
Calor gas is much cheaper in 13kg than 3.7kg
On this basis I'd swap the bottles round so the Gaslow us on the right and the calor on the left so as to have more room to manoeuvre.

If you look at your gauge it is is labelled 'propane' and so is designed for the bottle pressures expected from propane. As we've discussed, at any given temperature propane will have a much higher pressure than butane.

Bottom line is that your 'specialist' has done a very poor job and when he's corrected his mistakes I'd be very inclined to advise Gaslow about his shortcomings.

 

[Tookey]

Thankyou. Goes WAY over my head but I am learning

Been there! Measured up my locker, sourced a calor gas propane and butane from here and e bay, the regulators, got the butane filled, hunky dory.....

Oh crap, canisters have to be used in a vertical position only

Basically stuck with 907 campingaz which are economically poor, live and learn. You will get your head round it in no time

 

[Markd]

Been there! Measured up my locker, sourced a calor gas propane and butane from here and e bay, the regulators, got the butane filled, hunky dory.....

Oh crap, canisters have to be used in a vertical position only

Basically stuck with 907 campingaz which are economically poor, live and learn. You will get your head round it in no time

Will a patio gas 5kg go in?
If it does then next check (or maybe first check ) is can you get correct pressure in the van?

Standard 27mm regulator gives 37mb which is too much.
You can get an adapter that allows connection to butane tail so that might work for existing regulator if on board.
Or a standard butane regulator can be attached to it - they have high enough inlet pressure rating to be used on propane.

 

[winks]

When you get the gas fitter back I think I would be asking him to return your Gaslow bottle or give you a few bob back. This what they cost new.

Gaslow R67 6kg Refillable Cylinder 1 with Level Gauge

The Gaslow R67 6kg Refillable Cylinder 1 is especially designed to meet the French R67 Gas Tank Standards. Gaslow have always held the view that the Gaslow Bottles are considered as "Cylinders" and therefore they are manfacturered to the cylinder standard EN1442:2006. Gaslow were not just alone...

www.gasproducts.co.uk

I also cannot understand why he went for a butane bottle in the first place. I hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

Cheers

H

 

[Markd]

When you get the gas fitter back I think I would be asking him to return your Gaslow bottle or give you a few bob back. This what they cost new.

Gaslow R67 6kg Refillable Cylinder 1 with Level Gauge

The Gaslow R67 6kg Refillable Cylinder 1 is especially designed to meet the French R67 Gas Tank Standards. Gaslow have always held the view that the Gaslow Bottles are considered as "Cylinders" and therefore they are manfacturered to the cylinder standard EN1442:2006. Gaslow were not just alone...

www.gasproducts.co.uk

I also cannot understand why he went for a butane bottle in the first place. I hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

Cheers

H

And that's 6kg - 11kg is £180!
Even secondhand they fetch good money - certainly more than a new pigtails and an empty butane bottle - even taking the 30 minutes swap over time into account this should have been a free job!

And as none on Ebay I'd suggest that they go instantly at well over £100

 

[winks]

I totally agree. I'm not trying to add to Magpus' woes because we have all had to learn the ropes but I am annoyed, on his behalf, by the way he appears to have been treated by Gaslow and their recommended fitter. I'd guess if he'd tried using the Gaslow he'd have found the scarcity of fill points to be much less of a problem than he may have feared.

Cheers

H

 

[Markd]

Tbf - upon re reading I don't think the fitter was recommended - more that he does Gaslow installing.
@magpus
I'd check whether the fitter does have lpg 'gas safe' credentials.
Also don't one or two of the caravan-motorhome trade associations do an approved installer schemes?
Not strictly needed as work on bottle side of regulator can be DIY.

 

[Markd]

I only have one Gaslow bottle and back it up with Calorlite.
So far I've managed ok because I semi plan my routes around reasonably priced lpg sites, which i accept are reducing, and top up regardless of how much I need and take diesel on board at the same time.
I often only put in a few litres but that way I avoid ever having to use the calor

 

[magpus]

Thankyou everyone, I do appreciate your time and efforts and, once again, I am learning a lot.
No one here would go down the Blue butane bottle route and all would have gone red bottle.
Finally photographing the sticker on the locker door, shows that the original were 3.9 kilo bottles, which looking online are red propane.

I am fairly logical when I try to identify issues and just made another trial.
Having been out in the van today and been very warm, I thought I would try the 4.5k cylinder again to see if there is any difference with it being much warmer.
Absolutely no difference.
The video attached shows gas hob on and water heater.
As the water heater kicks in the gas hob flame drops and the fault code shows on the panel.

Just looked and videos don't appear to be allowed so, no video.

Anyway, as mentioned, I try to learn and although I will be changing to a red cylinder in some way shape or form, does any one know why, when it's nice and warm that the blue bottle seems severely lacking in pressure or something else.

The route I think I will try to take is visit my local gas stockist and ask if I can try some sizes in the van locker.
I would like to get as big as I can manage to manipulate without doing myself damage when it comes time to change. With such tight space, this was the reason for the small bottle.

Lastly, as mentioned above, changing from blue to red and needing a different connection.
Is there a converter I could just plug / screw into the end of the hose to be able to adapt the hose to fit red or is there a kit/hose I can buy and fit.
I really have such a low opinion of any motorhome / habcheck / fitter / installer that I really can't do a worse job. (famous last words)

(With everyone's help on a previous call for help, the crash data solution was fantastic)

 

[winks]

If you still have your original Gaslow pigtail this will do it.

Gaslow Easy-Fit Adapter

The Gaslow Easy-Fit Adapter 01-1674 is a UK POL LH male adapter with Easy-Fit hand wheel to convert 21.8LH regulators or regulator hoses to fit UK Propane cylinders.

www.gaslowdirect.com

Cheers

H