Penalties

[Mark D]

As a new member please forgive me if this has been covered before but I couldn't find anything. As a newbie to the site and wild camping I see quite a few references to "there was no no camping sign". Now whilst I'm considerate and obviously wouldn't camp on someone's drive I think a lot of these signs on national trust land etc are just put up as routine. If you are to stay there for say 8hrs overnight for a quick kip what would be the penalty.

 

[Firefox]

A private landowner can seek "damages" under civil law because if you've seen the notice and understood the terms you've effectively entered into a contract to use the land as specified and if you overstay or camp over night you've broken the contract.

However, such penalties are very difficult to enforce. The best thing is to say you weren't aware of the restrictions and there was no contract.

Local authorities are slightly different. If you contravene the terms of a car park then you may end up with a a fine/penalty. These are much more enforceable.

 

[barryd]

I would tend to look upon a spot with no overnighting signs as a signal that your not welcome so would move on. I doubt you would get fined but I wouldnt want to stay somehwere that had a sign up

 

[Mark D]

Mmm that's what I thought but when I studied law things such as trespass are a civil case but you can only sue for actual loss or damage, I believe it was only actually illegal to trespass on MOD land or the railways. Therefore if you enter a farmers field and walk around the outside there would be no damage so therefore no claim. If a land owner only displays a no parking sign with no fees displayed and you do no damage to the land then I don't see how they can persue a claim. I'm just playing devils advocate as I wonder how many of these signs are just scare mongery. Let's face it if I was a member of the travelling fraternity I know the problems you would face to move me on.

 

[vwalan]

hi. all depemds if you are camping or parking . eu law indiates that if you just park a m,home amd dont have steps that touch the floor put out awnings use levelling devices put out tables and chairs etc, you are only parking. you can usually sleep do internal sports etc thats ok . the rules are out there to allow you to sleep in your car. (motor homes are cars ). takes alot of effort to take you to court. if asked by a landowner i say best move . if its an authority stay . mostauthority land belongs to the public not the council officials.

 

[maingate]

There are many places which just have a simple sign saying 'no overnight stops' (or similar).

If they do not overlook houses and it is not peak season, then you should be OK. I tend to stop in the 'off' season. It can be a problem in summer as often another van will see you and think that it must be OK and then you finish up with a line of vans. :sad:

As has been said, if there is an official sign put up by a local authority, then respect it. I take a lot of time planning a trip. We have no fixed plan but I always have more overnighting spots than we need, this gives me alternatives in case of some problem.

Just go for it, ask the locals if you are not sure. look out for signs of trouble in car parks ie; burnt rubber (boy racers), broken bottles (dogging or yobs). You quickly get a feel for this and the poi's are a big help.

 

[Mark D]

Thanks for the guidence, i'm not being awkward but was thinking my van conversion is in full stealth mode, no windows etc which makes it easier to slip the odd night in here and there. My intention is as i've read on here, to take nowt but photos and leave nowt but tyre tracks (I like that saying) and obviously not to upset private land owners, but I think many of these signs in areas like the lakes etc, and are put up as policy by big public departments and are not really enforceable.

 

[Deleted member 967]

hi. all depemds if you are camping or parking . eu law indiates that if you just park a m,home amd dont have steps that touch the floor put out awnings use levelling devices put out tables and chairs etc, you are only parking. you can usually sleep do internal sports etc thats ok . the rules are out there to allow you to sleep in your car. (motor homes are cars ). takes alot of effort to take you to court. if asked by a landowner i say best move . if its an authority stay . mostauthority land belongs to the public not the council officials.

In UK law it is termed "used for human habitation" so parking? or camping? are the same thing. The person in the van is not subject to legal penalty for parking on the land. The UK has not recognised the EU ruling other countries have, such as Spain. EU laws have to be ratified by each member country to have it incorporated into its laws.

It is the landowner who is legally liable for allowing the land to be used for a caravan (Motorhome/Campervan) to be stationed for human habitation except with certain limited exemptions.
It is the Local Authority that takes action not the Police. The signs are simply there to show that permission has not been given. The Caravan Code states that permission to stop must be obtained from the landowner before using the caravan (Motorhome/Campervan) to stay in.

This is all covered in the "How To Guide" on this website

 

[Deleted member 967]

Thanks for the guidence, i'm not being awkward but was thinking my van conversion is in full stealth mode, no windows etc which makes it easier to slip the odd night in here and there. My intention is as i've read on here, to take nowt but photos and leave nowt but tyre tracks (I like that saying) and obviously not to upset private land owners, but I think many of these signs in areas like the lakes etc, and are put up as policy by big public departments and are not really enforceable.

The signs put up by the Local Authorities and National Parks are legally enforceable. They must state under which by-law they have be put there. It is signs put up by landowners that have no legal standing.

 

[John H]

On private land, the owner has the right to ask you to leave but trepass is a civil not a criminal offence, so you cannot be fined - although you can be sued by the landowner. In practice, this is unlikely because of the expense and the likely small awards. However, Section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 gives the senior police officer called to the incident the power to remove vehicles (but only if there are a minimum of two people and six vehicles involved - or if actual damage has been done to the landowner's property). In practice, however, would you feel comfortable sleeping in your motorhome on land owned by an irate farmer?

It has been suggested above that you can ignore banning notices on public land run by local authorities. This is not so. As individuals, we have no absolute right to use publicly-owned land as we wish. We elect people to run the land on our behalf and if we dont like the rules they come up with the only recourse is to elect somebody else. That is the difference between anarchy and society.

I agree with the advice given by barryd - if you are not welcome then move on to somewhere you are. We are trying to convince the wider world that we are responsible people who can be trusted to respect the land and cause no trouble - disobeying signs, whatever their legal basis, is not a good start. Happy travels.

 

[Mark D]

Thanks John thats seems to have explained my question along with the other replies. As mentioned i'm not setting out to upset anyone was just wondering how enforcable these signs were as i thought some were just really put up to stop the larger groups of Caravaners (as if a sign would!!). I'm actually an x trucker so quite used to assessing laybys etc and can tell a few stories but i'm new to looking for camping places in other area such as the Lakes where we intend to do a bit of travelling as it's close enough to get to in just over an hour but far enough away to be somewhere different.

I'll be starting off by trying a few places mentioned on here and if i find anymore i'll post them up.

 

[brotherjoe]

'disobeying signs, whatever their legal basis, is not a good start'

I disagree John, if the sign is legal then obey it. If its illegal then confront/question it.
I consider myself to be reasonably responsible, sensible and law following but I take issue with councils simply banging up signs to deter over night parking when it suits them.

 

[caspar]

A private landowner can seek "damages" under civil law because if you've seen the notice and understood the terms you've effectively entered into a contract to use the land as specified and if you overstay or camp over night you've broken the contract.

However, such penalties are very difficult to enforce. The best thing is to say you weren't aware of the restrictions and there was no contract.

Local authorities are slightly different. If you contravene the terms of a car park then you may end up with a a fine/penalty. These are much more enforceable.

Most authorities have actually decriminalised parking fines, so they too come under civil enforcement law, but the big difference is the LA can issue a PCN whereas the National Trust etc... can't.

 

[caspar]

In UK law it is termed "used for human habitation" so parking? or camping? are the same thing. The person in the van is not subject to legal penalty for parking on the land. The UK has not recognised the EU ruling other countries have, such as Spain. EU laws have to be ratified by each member country to have it incorporated into its laws.

John, I don't think that's quite factually correct. EU Legislation overrides national law. EU Legislation comes in two different forms, regulations and directives. Regulations become law in all member states the moment they come into force, without the requirement for any implementing measures, and automatically override any conflicting domestic provisions. Directives require member states to achieve a certain result while leaving them discretion as to how to achieve that result. The details of how they are to be implemented are left to member states.

With regards to Wild Camping it is difficult. Alan states a motorhome is a car. This is I believe based upon the EU definition of a motorhome under category M1 as, in brief, a vehicle with less than 8 seats adapted to include living accommodation (see European Union Whole Vehicle Type Approval), but this is not law. It is not a regulation or a directive.

I think therefore the UK term Motor Caravan (a motorhome does not exist in UK law) is the relevant term here. This makes it subject to the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, which as far as I can see has not been overridden or amended. As John correctly states, and as implied under the EUWVTA, the "human habitation" also plays a part, but the legislation is from 1960. If you want to read the full text, it is here: Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960

There are a very few exemptions for "stopovers," but basically they are not allowed.

However, as always, if you use common sense and don't make a nuisance, then the law is likely to accommodate you much of the time.

 

[Rubbertramp]

Trying to keep things simple....Overnight Parking signs with the exception of public car parks with enforcable traffic regulations, are usually there as a deterrent and are not legally enforcable. My experience has been that 99 times out of a hundred no-one will bother you or ask you to leave. If they do, then just smile, be nice and move on. You'll have the next 99 wild camping experiences to look forward to..... It's not a hanging offence after all!

 

[AndyC]

'disobeying signs, whatever their legal basis, is not a good start'

I disagree John, if the sign is legal then obey it. If its illegal then confront/question it.
I consider myself to be reasonably responsible, sensible and law following but I take issue with councils simply banging up signs to deter over night parking when it suits them.

If a sign, at a council owned/operated parking place, stating 'No Overnight Parking' is not backed up buy a clause in the relevant local authority's Traffic Regulation Orders then there is no basis for a PCN to be issued as no offence under the TRO has been committed.

However it has to be borne in mind that such a sign DOES indicate that permission has not been granted to park overnight therefore anyone doing so is committing an act of trespass.

AndyC

 

[caspar]

Andy, you are absolutely right - very many signs, road markings etc... fall foul of the TRO.

The single most important thing in all of this to me is the use of common sense and the fact that it only takes one or two "bad 'uns" to ruin things for ALL of us.

Whatever the law says or does not say, responsible wild camping is the only way to do it. That means a minimum of noise and mess, ideally a full litter sweep (not just your own!) before you leave, stay just one or two nights and move on, be friendly to everyone and give no cause whatsoever for you, or others like you, not to be welcomed back there again.

 

[maureenandtom]

Wouldn't it be nice to believe that every traffic sign we see is proper; it is rightfully there; has been considered carefully by people we elect and who are responsible to us; has the backing of law and should be obeyed?

In fact, you've got to wonder why they aren't all like that.

 

[vwalan]

its not like it because they cant do a proper job. never admit mistakes and never seem to get into trouble for wasting public money.
they think they are above following their own rules and regulations but visit honestr places of work etc and enforce what ever they find to enforce.
we arent suposed to question them or check up on them. be it council ,highways .police . etc they are all the same . do as i say not as i do.
we are really in a dictatorship .. doesnt matter what party is elected the authority stays the same. be it the office worker or the enforcer. unfit for purpose. if they were a vehicle they would fail their mot. and we would have to scrap them.
they do get scrapped with a golden hand shake and a lead into another waste of space job. history tells the tale .
cheers alan.

 

[caspar]

It's not hard to fall foul of the TRO's though. Have you ever read them? Everything down to the font used, height and width of lettering, borders, what should be on the back...... Absolutely everything is outlined in the tiniest of detail. One slip and it's invalid. No "de minimis" in courts over this issue.