MOT Failure, Handbrake HELP

[joebuck]

I wonder if anyone can help with a recent MOT failure regards my handbrake. In the last few weeks I have more or less renewed or seviced all the break system (front and rear). I have a Swift Kontiki 645 on the AL-KO chasis but no matter how much I adjust things etc my hanbrake does not hold the van on a small hill which makes me think it will fail the MOT again. Everything appears to be working fine when all is stripped back but there stll appears to be something missing from completing the job successfully.
The van is 3.5 tonne and I have read that the rear shoes are not designed to hold such a big van, not sure if this is true or not.

Any help would be good, (all the obvious things have been done)

Thanks

Joe

 

[biggirafe]

I wonder if anyone can help with a recent MOT failure regards my handbrake. In the last few weeks I have more or less renewed or seviced all the break system (front and rear). I have a Swift Kontiki 645 on the AL-KO chasis but no matter how much I adjust things etc my hanbrake does not hold the van on a small hill which makes me think it will fail the MOT again. Everything appears to be working fine when all is stripped back but there stll appears to be something missing from completing the job successfully.
The van is 3.5 tonne and I have read that the rear shoes are not designed to hold such a big van, not sure if this is true or not.

Any help would be good, (all the obvious things have been done)

Thanks

Joe

I can only quote from my KOntiki 640 using a Peugot boxer, It needs a good pull on but holds it fine.

However having said that after having the breaks serviced in August it took about 300 miles before the new breaks really bedded in to their best performance.

After that I tightened up all the linkages so that the handbreak started to come on with less handbreak movement. (hope that made sense)

 

[rickboy]

I wonder if anyone can help with a recent MOT failure regards my handbrake. In the last few weeks I have more or less renewed or seviced all the break system (front and rear). I have a Swift Kontiki 645 on the AL-KO chasis but no matter how much I adjust things etc my hanbrake does not hold the van on a small hill which makes me think it will fail the MOT again. Everything appears to be working fine when all is stripped back but there stll appears to be something missing from completing the job successfully.
The van is 3.5 tonne and I have read that the rear shoes are not designed to hold such a big van, not sure if this is true or not.

Any help would be good, (all the obvious things have been done)

Thanks

Joe

Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
Or Or Or -stretched handbreak cable THe list goes on.
Good luck
Rick

 

[rickboy]

Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
Or Or Or -stretched handbreak cable THe list goes on.
Good luck
Rick

And another thing!!!
If you have had the rear drums off,are the self adjusters adjusted properly.
The handbreak should hold the van if all is well.

 

[maingate]

Roughen up the Ferodo on the brake shoes and take it very gently to the MOT station. It will work better for a very short while.

As rickboy says, check the contact area when the brakes are applied. Put some chalk on the shoes, refit the drum and pull the handbrake on. Remove the drum and see how much chalk has been transferred.

 

[joebuck]

I can only quote from my KOntiki 640 using a Peugot boxer, It needs a good pull on but holds it fine.

However having said that after having the breaks serviced in August it took about 300 miles before the new breaks really bedded in to their best performance.

After that I tightened up all the linkages so that the handbreak started to come on with less handbreak movement. (hope that made sense)

thanks for your comments, I have heard about new brakes taking many miles to bed in but wondered if this was linked to how well the handbrake operated.
The problem I have is that I am only able to drive to the MOT station so I will be unable to drive a long way.
Thank You

 

[biggirafe]

thanks for your comments, I have heard about new brakes taking many miles to bed in but wondered if this was linked to how well the handbrake operated.
The problem I have is that I am only able to drive to the MOT station so I will be unable to drive a long way.
Thank You

It could be the problem but as Rickboy says there could be many things causing this issue, or maybe in an old van a combination of many small things is more likely.

If as Maingate says you use some chalk you should be able to see how much of the brake shoe is making contact with the drum, if the drum is old but the shoe is new you often only get partial contact until they have worn in. If this is the case I would say replacing the drum is the only proper thing to do, but if funds don't allow then again you could do as Maingate says and rough up the shoe before the MOT or a trick I have used is to drive a few miles holding the handbrake on to wear them in quickly. This would be a last resort and I'm sure this will get some comments

But also take Rickboys advise and make sure its nothing as simple as the self adjusters not taking up the slack or a weeping slave cylinder

Good luck

 

[joebuck]

Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
Or Or Or -stretched handbreak cable THe list goes on.
Good luck
Rick[/QUOTE

Thanks Rick, I have a Ducato and it has both drum and disc brakes. I renewed the handbrake last year but dont use it much for obvious reasons when parked on my drive. The cable appears to be doing its job and all attached parts appear to be working fine, but I can still manage to pull away in first gear with the handbrake on.

I think my next move will be to strip things back again and do what Maingate suggests with the chalk.
At the last MOT I paid my main dealer over £300 to have break problems fixed but always wondered about the quality of work. I could tell horror stories about my interactions with the main dealer I bought the van from but will show some restraint in fear of legal threats. Thanks again for your help.

 

[Deleted member 3270]

Just one other thing you could try that as not been mentioned and could solve your problem, is to release the adjustment fully on the hand brake cable and then manually adjust the adjusters inside the drums and the re-adjust the hand brake cable
hope this helps
regards keith.

 

[rickboy]

Handbreak

Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
Or Or Or -stretched handbreak cable THe list goes on.
Good luck
Rick[/QUOTE

Thanks Rick, I have a Ducato and it has both drum and disc brakes. I renewed the handbrake last year but dont use it much for obvious reasons when parked on my drive. The cable appears to be doing its job and all attached parts appear to be working fine, but I can still manage to pull away in first gear with the handbrake on.

I think my next move will be to strip things back again and do what Maingate suggests with the chalk.
At the last MOT I paid my main dealer over £300 to have break problems fixed but always wondered about the quality of work. I could tell horror stories about my interactions with the main dealer I bought the van from but will show some restraint in fear of legal threats. Thanks again for your help.

I think there are rubber gromets on the backplate.If so you can access the self adjusters through these.May be a case of pushing a serated cog a notch or 2.Check that the brakes are not binding while the wheels are off the ground.
I drive mine with the hand brake 1/2 on to clear the rust from the drums for a little way.

All the other advice is corrcct,you just need the bit that applies to you !!

Not simples.

Regards Rick

Good luck.

 

[maingate]

I have yet to come across self adjusters that work properly. Years ago, I used to remove the brake drum, drill a hole in the outer face of it in a suitable position so that I could use a terminal screwdriver to manually adjust the wheel on the automatic adjuster.

If your drums are worn then it is virtually impossible to adjust and then fit the drum as there is a lip on the drum. The hole only needs to be about 1/4" diameter.

Make sure the adjusting mechanism is free before you start though as you may get the shoes binding and you cannot back them off again.

 

[ajs]

I have yet to come across self adjusters that work properly. Years ago, I used to remove the brake drum, drill a hole in the outer face of it in a suitable position so that I could use a terminal screwdriver to manually adjust the wheel on the automatic adjuster.

.

as an ex girling marketeer... i concur... what a sheeetload of crap they are.

that's probably you problem slowstuck... do you have long foot peddle travel too

reargards
aj


you could spend 1/2 an hour pulling the hand brake on and off and then another 1/2 an hour pumping yer foot brake...see if the bastids attempt to work

 

[rickboy]

Girling man

Girling man. Modern braking systems have a load compensator on the rear brakes,so full braking to the rear is only fully activated under load.Ths can be adjusted ,its just a rod/spring.
Why oh why has mechanical life got so complicated.Small gains for major pain and complexity.I like the modern ideas if only they never went wrong,but they do and they are such a pain to fix!!!!!
I'am going back to my cave now.
Rick

 

[rickboy]

I have yet to come across self adjusters that work properly. Years ago, I used to remove the brake drum, drill a hole in the outer face of it in a suitable position so that I could use a terminal screwdriver to manually adjust the wheel on the automatic adjuster.

If your drums are worn then it is virtually impossible to adjust and then fit the drum as there is a lip on the drum. The hole only needs to be about 1/4" diameter.

Make sure the adjusting mechanism is free before you start though as you may get the shoes binding and you cannot back them off again.

Access from the rear via grommets. STOP snigering!!

 

[maingate]

There were no grommets in my day young man.

Chariots would have been more reliable if we had grommets.

I believe Nick Park invented them.

 

[rickboy]

Grommets

There were no grommets in my day young man.

Chariots would have been more reliable if we had grommets.

I believe Nick Park invented them.

First time I have come across too much Wendsleydale on the brake shoes

Son

 

[Boxerman]

Girling man. Modern braking systems have a load compensator on the rear brakes,so full braking to the rear is only fully activated under load.
Rick

The load compensator only applies to the hydraulic side of things, not the handbrake.
On the Boxer, the handbrake primary cable goes to a bell crank in the centre of the chassis, a rod from the bell crank goes back to pull on the secondary cable(s).
I found that the bell crank pivot on my van was partially seized, removing the bell crank and greasing the pivot pin made an enormous difference to my handbrake.
If your Ducato is the "Boxer type" then this may be your problem.

HTH
Frank

 

[rickboy]

Frank.You'r quite correct.I mentioned the compensator as this is often a reason the rear discs don't get the rust cleaned off on a quick trip around the block in off season(unladen).I should have explained more clearly.
Lets hope one of us will have the correct diagnosis for our friend ,with such a wealth of knowledge to draw on we should have.
Thanks Rick

 

[ajs]

Girling man. Modern braking systems have a load compensator on the rear brakes,

you lost me after "load" trickytoy

have no idea what has happened to breaking systems over the past 30 years
.... but i do remember them bastid auto adjusters never auto adjusting.



regards
aj

 

[joebuck]

A big thanks to everyone that has given advice, some of you people are so knowledgeable.... I wll now have to chat with my mechanic regards the next move and hopefully rectify this fault.