Battery advice please!

LindsayH

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Hi all! I hope you're all enjoying this great British summer weather! It's cooler in the van at least.
I would like your advice about leisure batteries please. As some may know, I've been having a few electrical issues which are slowly getting worse and following advice I am going to start by replacing my leisure batteries, which I suspect are quite old. Please bear with me, my electrical knowledge is very limited. I currently have 2 x Banner batteries which I think are the 95901s:
Banner Energy Bull Leisure Battery 95901 12V 115Ah
I could do a straight swap, which might be wise given my lack of knowledge, but there are a couple of reasons why I'm wondering if I should get different ones. Firstly, I've got you lovely lot's brains to pick. Secondly, I had in my head of budget of £250-£300 (or possibly a teeny bit more if there was a good reason). While I'd very much like to stick to the bottom end of this as I'm skint, with our Alpha discount, I could buy something a bit more expensive (better??) than the Banners. Thirdly, mine are 115Ah and at quick glance I could go to 120Ah in the same space. Does this make an actual difference? Fourthly, space is very tight, I could go a little taller than the existing ones (maybe a cm) but length and width are maxed out and they will be difficult to change. If I can get some as good/better in the same space/slightly smaller that might be good. The dimensions of the banners are Length 350 mm, Width 175 mm, Height inc. terms 230 mm.
A couple I've looked at:
Numax
12v 115ah Numax XDT30MF Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries
Expedition
12v 120AH Expedition Plus Semi Traction Leisure Battery - Alpha Batteries
Lucas
12V 120 AH Lucas Leisure Battery LX35MF - Alpha Batteries
Leoch
12V 120AH Leoch Adventurer AGM Leisure Battery (LAGM120) - Alpha Batteries

Like I said, I know very little about electrics so some of these may be totally unsuitable. My gut feeling is to replace like for like to avoid disaster which is what I'll do if I get no responses. But I'd love to hear your opinions.
If it makes any difference, I have two solar panels, a Fox 150 solar thingy, I'm pretty sure there is a split charge system (is that what the Zig is?) and a 12v fridge (Vitrifrigo). There should be photos of all of these, incl the batteries in an album on my profile.
Cheers guys!
- Lindsay x
 
I have 4 gel batteries. 2 which are 10 yrs old and 2 which are 7 years old, added when we installed a battery to battery charger. Because they're sealed gel they don't have to be vented or need maintenance.. I think the way to make them last is to avoid deeply discharging them, which shouldn't happen to you cos of the solar panels. I've read a lot about batteries, and when we need to, will probably go with the same.
 
Have a look at this:

Battery Technology Advances mean big savings and better batteries for Caravans/Motorhomes

Alpha Batteries can supply both the Varta and Bosch batteries that are recommended, the Varta ones being cheaper but a smaller selection.

May be worth a call to see if other Varta capacities are available ...
 
hairydog said:
Lead is very heavy, so you have a good, dependable measure by simply measuring the weight. As a rule of thumb, look for a (12v) battery that is around 250G per Ah (so a 100Ah battery should weigh 25KG). If it is as low as 200g/Ah, look elsewhere. If it is around 300g/Ah, buy it!
Click to expand...

According to Alan the bad boys have cottoned on to that one and are using cut down plates and concrete in the bottom of casing.
 
Get a voltmeter and check the batteries because it doesn't sound to me like you know for sure that's your problem. If you don't know how to use one look on youtube.

If you're fulltiming you absolutely have to know how to use a voltmeter and how to keep an eye on your batteries. The alternative is wasting money.

Buy a voltmeter before you do anything, check the battery voltages, use them, check again, see how fast they drain. Even if they are shot at least you know for sure and you'll get far more life from the next pair.

£9 delivered. ULTRICSA Digital LCD Multimeter Voltmeter Ammeter OHM AC DC Circuit Checker Tester Buzzer 1000V 10A Probes: Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

I couldn't live without one fulltiming. I use it all the time to diagnose problems.
 
Varta /bosch silver frame batterys every time if you have money,ind tests show these are the best by miles and are fitted to stop/start top make cars as they will last 5 years without drop of and can take a hammering.
 
hairydog said:
Batteries are incredibly complicated. There are several chemistries, a few electrolyte systems and a few plate types. So there are loads of possible combinations of features.

To explain how it all works, basically, there are lead plates sitting side by side in a bath of sulphuric acid. You apply a voltage to charge them and electrons flow from one plate to the other, and stay there until you let them flow back. If you overcharge them past the point when they are fully charged, the electrons can't flow the same way and the water in the electrolyte starts splitting and creating an explosive mixture of gases. As this bubbles out, the battery needs topping up with special ionised water.

Typically, caravanners are sold gel batteries. These are lead acid batteries with the electrolyte sealed in and in the form of a gel (a bit lilke clear swarfega, I suppose). The advantage of this is that it can't spill, even if you tip it upside down. The disadvantage is that it can't deliver high currents or be charged quickly because the chemicals in the electrolyte can only move slowly: not a big deal for most uses. They also cost more, and are retailed at a higher profit margin, so they are popular with sellers. They are sold as lasting longer, but that's actually not true: they need more careful use, which can extend a battery's life. You can't top them up, so you mustn't overcharge them. I don't rate them as a good buy at all.

You can get Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) batteries. These are also sealed up so the electrolyte is in a sealed box. The idea is that any gases emitted by overcharging are kept in there and will recombine when times are better. The valve regulation is a safety valve so they can't explode if things go wrong. As far as I know, gel batteries are also a sort of VRLA.

Some batteries use an electrolyte-impregnated glass mat instead of a pool of liquid or gel acid as an electrolyte. This is called Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM). The idea is that it has the non-spill capacity of Gel but also can provide and receive high currents.

Then there are the "Powerframe" or similar battery frameworks. As you can guess, it is not a comfortable environment in a battery, but the metal frames that hold the plates and carry the current have to be pretty tough. Bosch and Varta make a big deal of their battery frames. They may have a point: I've found their batteries to be really good.

The Varta and Bosch Silver batteries are AGM, VRLA and have a special frame that resists corrosion.

But then there is the matter of how the plates are made. This is REALLY important. For a battery used to start a big diesel engine or give a huge burst of power for a short time, you want thin plates with a high surface area. For batteries designed to store large amounts of power and give it out slowly, you want thicker plates and the surface area matters less. Varta have special batteries with a coating on the positive plate for cars with regenerative braking, but I don't know the details. My car's too old for that sort of thing.

Then there is the cycle life. Some batteries are rated to be good for 500 discharge cycles down to 50% full. Others are rated to be good for under 100 cycles. Most seem to be rated for around 150 cycles. Finding what the rating is is hard enough: knowing if it is true is almost impossible. And of course ones rated to last longer cost more. Much more, sometimes.

So where does that leave a battery buyer? Confused, probably. Particularly as there is so much misinformation out there, and people giving advice that is good, but may not apply to your requirements. (Charles Sterling, for example)

Basically, for leisure batteries, you want the biggest capacity you can fit in, the best cycle life rating you can find, and then decide what you can afford.

All other factors being more or less equal, buy the heaviest batteries you can. My preference is for VRLA AGM.

However, what makes a leisure battery good and long lasting is a lot of lead on its plates.
Lead is very heavy, so you have a good, dependable measure by simply measuring the weight. As a rule of thumb, look for a (12v) battery that is around 250G per Ah (so a 100Ah battery should weigh 25KG). If it is as low as 200g/Ah, look elsewhere. If it is around 300g/Ah, buy it!
Click to expand...

Bosch and Varta silver Powerframe batteries are VRLA type not AGM.

Korky.
 
cough cough traffic light batteries are the business forever leave em hanging about :dance:

Channa
 
ScoTTyBEEE said:
Get a voltmeter and check the batteries because it doesn't sound to me like you know for sure that's your problem. If you don't know how to use one look on youtube.

If you're fulltiming you absolutely have to know how to use a voltmeter and how to keep an eye on your batteries. The alternative is wasting money.

Buy a voltmeter before you do anything, check the battery voltages, use them, check again, see how fast they drain. Even if they are shot at least you know for sure and you'll get far more life from the next pair.

£9 delivered. ULTRICSA Digital LCD Multimeter Voltmeter Ammeter OHM AC DC Circuit Checker Tester Buzzer 1000V 10A Probes: Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

I couldn't live without one fulltiming. I use it all the time to diagnose problems.
Click to expand...

neither could i i couldn't be without one now. i knew less than nothing when i bought my dog of a van and i have learned HUGE amounts from the kind WC community. Part of my initial problems was a japanese electrical radio-satnav which was hardwired into the batteries but which was never OFF (but on stand-by) and it constantly drained the battery. i had it removed. I finally changed all my batteries after the engine one frequently let me down and died, and the leisure battery was almost useless. I now have 3 identical 110A batteries of the same make and ampage and the electrical performance is definitely better than when i bought it. i have learnt how to use a multi meter (get a good one) and that i need to let the batteries settle for an hour after driving before taking meaningful readings. i never let my batteries drop below 12.5 before moving on - but i am a cautious person and i know others let it go to 12v before worrying. My electrical usage is minimal (water pumps, lights). But i have 2 12v sockets in the habitation (in addition to the cab ciggie lighter socket) which i use for laptop and charging my phone. i now recharge my laptop when i am on the move so that the alternator is doing the work. its a balancing act which you cannot balance without a good multi meter. Good luck - if i can learn all this stuff...... anyone can.
 
I replaced the 2 x 125AH batteries for 2 x 90AH Bosch Powerframes. These are completely sealed and don’t need venting.

I agree about getting a multimeter and checking first though but if you are swapping you will get 2 Bosch from Alpha and a chunk of change 👍
 
hairydog said:
The one in my car lasted 11 years, so I replaced it with another of the same make and model. But they are far from the best. It's just that the best cost a LOT more.
Click to expand...

Think there only out about 5 years but not sure,independent tests show they are.
 
hairydog said:
I don't believe that putting concrete would be worth the effort. It has so many chemical snags and is only a bit over twice the weight of that volume of electrolyte, whereas lead is well over ten times the weight. And it would save very little money.
Click to expand...


And yet it has been seen to be done, when you're knocking out fake batteries by the thousand the savings add up.
 
hairydog said:
All AGM batteries are also VRLA but it doesn't say so, just as all organic eggs are free-range, but it doesn't say so.
Click to expand...

Ooer, I was spouting some crap yesterday.

It is the last time I will post so late at night whilst under the grape, and I apologise for that.

It was a very wet day yesterday in more ways than one.

Korky.
 
hairydog said:
Nah: that wouldn't work. Concrete is 2,400 Kg/M3, lead is 11,340 Kg/M3
Click to expand...

It can work. The volume of a battery taken up by the actual lead content may only be 20%? Plus
the electrolyte.
Now if you fill the battery with say 50%? concrete it may then well weigh around that of
a non tampered with batt.
I have put ? marks because I don't have the figures too hand, but you can see the principle.

I have never been a battery fraudster.
 
hairydog said:
That is the point. You don't have the figures to hand.
The volume of a 100Ah battery is about 4.5 litres. Even if you completely filled it with concrete it would weigh 11Kg. A good battery that size weighs around 24 to 26Kg.
It is not possible to fake a good battery with concrete. You could do it with gold, of course. But that won't turn a profit.
Click to expand...

Have plenty enough to establish the principle, it's all very variable as far as specific materials are concerned anyway.

Half the battery genuine =13kg
Half concrete =6kg
18kg would be heavy enough to fool many people they were getting a half decent battery,
but if there was any doubt then you'd only need to substitute scrap iron for 50% of the
concrete to get a battery weight comparable to the weight of the genuine article.

Half the battery genuine =13kg
25% of batt. scrap iron = 9kg
25% of batt. conc. = 3kg
25kg should fool anyone, no filling with gold required!

Now whether any of this is worthwhile or viable is another question, in India possibly so, in the
UK?
 
Thanks for the link, it's really interesting. I've been looking through the Varta and Bosch batteries on Alpha and checking and rechecking the space in the battery cupboard. I *think* I can squeeze in the extra 3mm length just about, but going from 115ah to 90ah seems like a big drop. I know that because of the better tech the loss is probably not as bad as it seems, but 50ah still seems like a lot to me?


POI Admin said:
Have a look at this:

Battery Technology Advances mean big savings and better batteries for Caravans/Motorhomes

Alpha Batteries can supply both the Varta and Bosch batteries that are recommended, the Varta ones being cheaper but a smaller selection.

May be worth a call to see if other Varta capacities are available ...
Click to expand...
 
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