A Frames rules.

grasmere

Guest
Hi I realize this subject must have been done,I have had a look on the site but cannot see much on the subject (I will have missed it) Could you please tell me where on the site I may find the posts on this subject? I have done a fair bit of research on A frames but I am having trouble in deciding if they are legal or not. I realize that the answers will only be opinions and not fact.
Thank you John
 
I used one for the last ten years towing my spitfire around to shows etc. Had no problems at all in UK & ROI. Also no problems in EU untill last year when I was stopped in France and informed that it was illegal there. Now don't take spitty to france as a trailer is a pain in the arse. But do still go to Germany and Denmark via the Holland[/SIZE] ferry.
 
Another minefield! All I can tell you is that we are currently in Spain and have run into several people who have been stopped in both France and Spain and either fined or told that they have to unhitch the trailing car and drive it independently. It seems that it has been illegal for a long time but his year they have decided to enforce it. No doubt others will post and tell you they have been trailing for years without bother, so its up to you as to whether you are willing to take the risk.
 
There is a lengthy item about this in MMM August 2010 issue on pp 13 and 15 ...

Regards

Chris
 
In the UK it is not illegal to tow a car using an A-frame so long at the entire set up complies with trailer regulations.

AndyC
 
John H said:
Another minefield! All I can tell you is that we are currently in Spain and have run into several people who have been stopped in both France and Spain and either fined or told that they have to unhitch the trailing car and drive it independently. It seems that it has been illegal for a long time but his year they have decided to enforce it. No doubt others will post and tell you they have been trailing for years without bother, so its up to you as to whether you are willing to take the risk.
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It is illegal too in Belgium. It might be used only in an emergency (max speed and leave the motorway at the next exit)
 
Fleming said:
It is illegal too in Belgium. It might be used only in an emergency (max speed and leave the motorway at the next exit)
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Also it is illegal in Spain as been for some time in 2009 cost me 100 Euros
 
it is only legal in this country as a breakdown aid and the towed vehicle must weigh less than 75% of the towing vehicle.
 
gordon said:
it is only legal in this country as a breakdown aid and the towed vehicle must weigh less than 75% of the towing vehicle.
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According to MMM, as mentioned above, it is a grey area and apparently not yet tested in any court in the UK.

It is not illegal to tow a vehicle on an A-frame, therefore until it is brought before a court it is permitted to do so.

By contrast most of Europe has a more restrictive approach and this practice has not been deemed legal - in other words the reverse of the position in this country.

If you are visiting Europe, according to MMM, you may be challenged and although visitors would be entitled to tow with an A-frame if it was explicitly legal in the UK, this is not the case ...

Tricky.

Apparently there are further grey areas in the UK regarding overrun brake mechanisms required for a braked trailer (for that is what the towed car becomes), and the disengagement of the trailer's brakes when reversing (which cannot be done with a car).
 
We were just on the verge of buying an "A" frame type set up until we saw donkey too 's post. Some-one else pointed out that it doesn't matter what PDF downloads these "A" frame companies put out for you to show to a foreign Policeman if he decides you ain't going any further, that's it.
The "A" frame system looks brilliant; when you don't need it, bundle it up and leave it in the Motorhome. After all, who in their right minds would want to faff about with a trailer
But if by using an "A" frame set up you stand a good chance of being fined or, worse still, being told to disconnect the towed vehicle and made to continue separately; just imagine if you were on your own.
I know the pros and cons of "A" frames and the Vienna Convention(not sure if that's the right word) but the bit about
Apparently there are further grey areas in the UK regarding overrun brake mechanisms required for a braked trailer (for that is what the towed car becomes), and the disengagement of the trailer's brakes when reversing (which cannot be done with a car).
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is the clinching argument
Some-one else mentioned that it is sanctioned in the UK. My own view is that the Police are just looking for a test case involving an accident and that will be it.
Shame that trailers are so expensive
 
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baloothebear said:
My own view is that the Police are just looking for a test case involving an accident and that will be it.
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Another interesting thought - has anybody checked with their insurance companies to see if they would be covered either in the UK or in Europe? Since the whole question of A-frames is such a grey area, my bet is that they would refuse to pay out in the event of an accident.
 
A - frames.no no

I answered this question quite a while back,while towing a Suzuki GV ragtop with a brand new 2 tonne A- frame with a long wheel base Nissan Terrano,nearly 2000 miles !!
It is not legal in Germany and Austria as i was stopped several times (lol) managing to be very lucky every time,me and the Mrs (luckily) had to unhitch and drive the two seperate !!!!and this is how stupid it is,they made us unhitch and drive Suzuki seperate without asking for road legal documents !!!
The reason for towing,cheaper (1 lot of fuel) faster,as i can tow at 65mph and the vehicle can ,as my Mrs can't,and also she panics more as not experienced.
Not sure of other European countries but what i gathered from police,they are not recognised there,some never seen one,and were bouncing up and down on unit when hitched up,him being a Bavarian sausage eater of 6'6" and 25 stone or more (git)apparantly there is an on the spot large fine they can give out,or even conferscation,they can and will weigh you too,as they did one time with me ??luckily again within limits.
I dont know if theres a different ruling with the independant BRAKED A-frames that use the towed vehicles brakes???Otherwise its a trailor i'm afraid,why i dont know,as the car/vehicle is a trailor when fixed ????
One thing i found when using the new A-frame i had....it worked loose,and become very wavey going down the long hill into Dover port....eeeegh,i re-hitched and solved the problem by using extra bolts,washers and nuts,long enough to pass through the looped chain,thus clamping them together at contact,and both sides of frame/ends of car.
 
In the UK there aren't really any grey areas. The Department for Transport have stated "When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer."

The difficulties arise when you start to look at the braking requirements. There is no doubt that an A-frame setup can be made to meet the current legislation, whether the use of overrun/inertia systems does in fact meet the requirements is open to doubt.

There is another potential issue in that the current European Type Approval legislation for trailers is due to change in 2014 and after the change inertia braking will only be allowed on centre-axle trailers.

See: UKMotorhomes.net - A Frame towing for more

AndyC
 
AndyC said:
In the UK there aren't really any grey areas. The Department for Transport have stated "When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer."
AndyC
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The critical phrase in that quote is the "we believe" bit. Until it is tested in a court of law, I'm afraid it does remain a very grey area.
 
Off thread sorry now today Friday I have been ordered to remove my scooter rack because i as not got a EUC stamp on it and not approved here in Spain, Dose anyone in the Uk know were you can get a rack witch is E,U ,C approved I have called 4 makers form ebay and all have said no.
 
The scooter rack has now got to be E.U.C Approved and have the paper work that go,s with it witch i cant find as it is about 5 years old and only put on my motor,home 6 months ago, so now i will have to try and find a new one here to have a platform made for a scooter is about 1,500 euros. the one i got that went on the tow ball was 300 pound i think when i got it.

Soon you will need to be E.U C approved here before you have a S---t;););)
 
John H said:
The critical phrase in that quote is the "we believe" bit. Until it is tested in a court of law, I'm afraid it does remain a very grey area.
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Has any one checked case law?
People have been fined but you might be fined under a different law, incorrect brakes, lighting reflectors etc, so it might appeer to be the case but in reality its not.
Having used two different A frames and had no problems I will not use them again as its a mine field, basically if its a trailer then you cant get the correct braking force, reflectors are wrong shape etc.
As some one said earlier its a chance as more and more police are catching on to it.
Just think of this
Its illegal to carry a bladed instrument in a public place but most shops sell them?
Bit like all the companies selling A frames, even if you get done how would you shift the blame to them? I dont think you could as it would be up to you to check the legality of the equipment, as you comitted the offence not them?
 
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winchman said:
Has any one checked case law?
People have been fined but you might be fined under a different law, incorrect brakes, lighting reflectors etc, so it might appeer to be the case but in reality its not.
Having used two different A frames and had no problems I will not use them again as its a mine field, basically if its a trailer then you cant get the correct braking force, reflectors are wrong shape etc.
As some one said earlier its a chance as more and more police are catching on to it.
Just think of this
Its illegal to carry a bladed instrument in a public place but most shops sell them?
Bit like all the companies selling A frames, even if you get done how would you shift the blame to them? I dont think you could as it would be up to you to check the legality of the equipment, as you comitted the offence not them?
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Hi

The reason this is a grey legal area is because, as far as I am aware, there has been no case law in the UK. Only when a test case is brought will the situation become clear.

The stopping and fining has been taking place in France, Spain and other European countries and I cannot comment on their laws (only that I wouldn't argue with an armed policeman!).

As for shifting the responsibility to the manufacturers, this is highly unlikely to succeed because possession of an A-frame is not an offence, nor is using it to recover a vehicle in certain circumstances. If someone chooses to use it in a way that might be illegal then it is purely their responsibility.

But, apart from anything else, I really do think that if anyone is going to use an A-frame they should check with their insurance company to see if they are covered in the event of an accident.
 
A frame Rules.

Thank you for the replies,(apologizes to the experienced members for covering old grond)
I feel that in view of the fact that insurance companys do not need a lot of wriggle room. That at present I will leave it alone.
I have had a look at one and was supprised to find the only specification that I could see was the weight that the tow hitch was covered for, no type approval Etc.
Once again thank you for the replies.
John.
 
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