New Legislation on unauthorised encampments

What about the dodgy van conversions, where the only conversion is a mattress thrown down in the back.
Would that constitute a motorhome.
QFours link highlighted the problem with campers without any toilet.
This is something that comes up regularly. Fife are concerned about this.
Putting up barriers prevents fully equipped motorhomes from gaining entry, yet allows campers with no toilets to enter.
That point was raised by the chap I contacted on the Fife proposals. Hence his reluctance to fit barriers.
 
Fisherman made a good point.
Private enterprise is allowed to sell a product with no restrictions (motorhomes) and no one takes responsibility for where they go.
Private campsites and clubs are an option but councils or government need to take some action to allow alternatives.
Some councils have recognised that it can be a benefit to the town, but many still have an anti policy.
The sign that used to say No Irish, no gypsies no dogs. Now includes no motor homes. In my book that is prejudice.
I am having a battle in my area because I cannot get into many car parks with my high top. It is preventing me from accessing the countryside. Whether I overnight or not.
Grrrrrr!!!!!
 
Moonraker 2 said:
Fisherman made a good point.
Private enterprise is allowed to sell a product with no restrictions (motorhomes) and no one takes responsibility for where they go.
Private campsites and clubs are an option but councils or government need to take some action to allow alternatives.
Some councils have recognised that it can be a benefit to the town, but many still have an anti policy.
The sign that used to say No Irish, no gypsies no dogs. Now includes no motor homes. In my book that is prejudice.
I am having a battle in my area because I cannot get into many car parks with my high top. It is preventing me from accessing the countryside. Whether I overnight or not.
Grrrrrr!!!!!
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Sad to say you will not resolve the height barrier issue until there is a solution to the age old problem of unauthorised encampments. I’m not suggesting the current proposal is the correct one, but until cash strapped local councils have the lawful means to prevent the mess left by any travellers ( note I’m deliberately non-specific) occurring in the first place then the current situation will continue. The perceived problem always centres around the clean up costs and height barriers are so much cheaper than providing sites. Most local councils do not have the land available for transit sites and when they do, the nimby reaction from local residents usually ensures that they don’t get built. The one good thing about the proposals at the moment is to extend the power of the police to move on unauthorised encampments irrespective of arbitrary local authority or in some cases, national boundaries, to a transit site in an adjoining area. Of course if all traveller groups were self regulating and left no traces, we wouldn’t be having this discusssion ...............
 
IMO, this new legislation would never be enforced for the odd couple of random vans in a car park. It's use is to quickly evict large groups or particular people who don't give a fcuk and will do all of those undesirable things we always see them doing in the news. Current laws don't exist to do this quickly.
 
Val54 said:
Sad to say you will not resolve the height barrier issue until there is a solution to the age old problem of unauthorised encampments. I’m not suggesting the current proposal is the correct one, but until cash strapped local councils have the lawful means to prevent the mess left by any travellers ( note I’m deliberately non-specific) occurring in the first place then the current situation will continue. The perceived problem always centres around the clean up costs and height barriers are so much cheaper than providing sites. Most local councils do not have the land available for transit sites and when they do, the nimby reaction from local residents usually ensures that they don’t get built. The one good thing about the proposals at the moment is to extend the power of the police to move on unauthorised encampments irrespective of arbitrary local authority or in some cases, national boundaries, to a transit site in an adjoining area. Of course if all traveller groups were self regulating and left no traces, we wouldn’t be having this discusssion ...............
Click to expand...

The problem with barriers is camper vans can get under them. And most of them don’t have toilets. This was highlighted during a conversation I had with Fife council, and also in the article posted on post 14 on this thread.
 
Fisherman said:
What about the dodgy van conversions, where the only conversion is a mattress thrown down in the back.
Would that constitute a motorhome.
QFours link highlighted the problem with campers without any toilet.
This is something that comes up regularly. Fife are concerned about this.
Putting up barriers prevents fully equipped motorhomes from gaining entry, yet allows campers with no toilets to enter.
That point was raised by the chap I contacted on the Fife proposals. Hence his reluctance to fit barriers.
Click to expand...
I am never ceased to be amazed by the British obsession with bloody toilets. So should it be part of a Motorhomes Dvla description as much as having a table....? I am uncomfortable with being told what I should and shouldn’t have by authorities who have probably never camped a night in their miserable lives.

The dvla classification of vehicles has become even more grey, at the moment very difficult to get a vehicle reclassified as a motorhome on a v5 and yet would answer fisherman’s question post 21. The matter is further complicated by living vans technically if you carry a scooter in your garage, phgv makes sense and all people want on vans over 3.5 tonnes.my point is what is a motorhome is far from cut and dried

I think labelling vehicles is totally the wrong approach. The problem is all to do with the attitude and behaviour of those who give the pastime a bad name, stick them in a top range Concorde and I doubt their behaviour will change, it needs a change in attitude and more heavy handed enforcement using the powers already in place.
 
channa said:
I am never ceased to be amazed by the British obsession with bloody toilets. So should it be part of a Motorhomes Dvla description as much as having a table....? I am uncomfortable with being told what I should and shouldn’t have by authorities who have probably never camped a night in their miserable lives.

The dvla classification of vehicles has become even more grey, at the moment very difficult to get a vehicle reclassified as a motorhome on a v5 and yet would answer fisherman’s question post 21. The matter is further complicated by living vans technically if you carry a scooter in your garage, phgv makes sense and all people want on vans over 3.5 tonnes.my point is what is a motorhome is far from cut and dried

I think labelling vehicles is totally the wrong approach. The problem is all to do with the attitude and behaviour of those who give the pastime a bad name, stick them in a top range Concorde and I doubt their behaviour will change, it needs a change in attitude and more heavy handed enforcement using the powers already in place.
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First the point was raised by the chap running the survey for Fife council.
His and their concern is human faeces have been found at some of their carparks.
Obviously if you have a toilet in your van their is no reason for this to happen. This was also mentioned in the article posted on post 14. I am not stating that a Motorhome or camper should have a toilet, merely pointing out concerns of local authorities who manage carparks affected by such behaviour.
Also my term dodgy van conversion was not referring to someone doing their own conversion, fitting kitchens, plumbing, gas storage windows etc. What I was referring to literally was a works van with nothing done apart from a mattress thrown in the back, and camping gas stove for cooking. I have seen this on two occasions now and once at Kingsbarns carpark in Fife were the human faeces were found. These vans were never refused classification as a Motorhome, because they would never have applied. I was also questioning if such a van should count in any new legislation.
 
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Bill, I wasn’t particularly having a go at your post. I just think to re iterate it’s not the vehicles causing the issue but the behaviour of the occupants. And it is that that needs addressing.

Dvla have tightened up on re classifying vehicle there was a thread here not so long ago and plenty of statistical evidence to support that.

Re human excrement, Fife and every other county in the uk have trucks in transit there are lots of dry vans that’s not going to change , and whilst I understand people’s concerns, whilst local authorities are closing facilities the problem is only going to get worse.Fwiw disability groups I have involvement with are equally upset,and probably have more reason too than motorhome groups. Ultimately for the secure future of wildcamping it is how we shift offenders attitudes
 
channa said:
Bill, I wasn’t particularly having a go at your post. I just think to re iterate it’s not the vehicles causing the issue but the behaviour of the occupants. And it is that that needs addressing.

Dvla have tightened up on re classifying vehicle there was a thread here not so long ago and plenty of statistical evidence to support that.

Re human excrement, Fife and every other county in the uk have trucks in transit there are lots of dry vans that’s not going to change , and whilst I understand people’s concerns, whilst local authorities are closing facilities the problem is only going to get worse.Fwiw disability groups I have involvement with are equally upset,and probably have more reason too than motorhome groups. Ultimately for the secure future of wildcamping it is how we shift offenders attitudes
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A point raised during my conversation with the chap from Fife Council was he reckoned that we could police all kinds of bad behaviour from all who use the carparks at night. Fife intend to put up phone numbers that you can call if you spot in appropriate behaviour. His positive attitude was he would rather have a carpark with some well behaved Motorhomes through the night, than an empty carpark. Off course that is up to the individual.

Back to the toilet situation.
My mate has a T5 camper, and he avoids town carparks because of amongst other things he has no toilet.
I have suggested carrying a thetford porta loo, but he is simply not interested.
Each to their own, but I just wanted to assure you and everyone I was not being judgemental towards campers with no toilets. Merely trying to explain concerns of councils, and questioning wether vans that have not been converted or recognised by the dvla as Motorhomes should count in this new legislation.

Apologies Andrew for misunderstanding your post.
 
Did anyone see a documentary about fly tipping recently? Fascinating stuff.
It is apparently a mega business - reckoned to be worth millions - for criminals who are operating countrywide.

If you put into perspective the amount of human poo found in car parks nationwide it pales into insignificance by comparison.

BUT - that doesn't stop councils wanting to address the perceived problem - unfortunately antisocial behaviour runs across the board and, as channa says, I wonder how much of this 'human faeces' problem is solely down to irresponsible travellers of whatever creed or colour? How about ordinary truck and van drivers? Or just people in cars? Motorhomes, camper vans and caravans are just easy targets because they are highly visible and easily distinguished from other vehicles, so it makes it easy to legislate against them parking up.

I don't know what the answer is, but we really should take a stand when excessive legislation starts restricting our freedom of movement, imho.

PS - and our freedom to park up in public spaces!
 
Changing folks mindset or discription of a motorhome is one thing but beating everyone with a big stick is something else and is alway going to be tricky to sort the wheat from the chaff .
Now the dvla could and should have done a better job with van re reging, motorcaravan should have a loo, 25ltr water, cooker, fridge, wast tank, wash /sink,and a bed,table,at all weights & be ok to carry a scooter/bike etc.
A living van/showmans van should be the same but over 7.5 ton but with extras for living from,ie garage for scooter/bike ,larger water tank/holding tank,solar panels for living of grid for longer.
A van with windows should not require water tanks, toilets, cooker,table,but should have a removable seating for disabled if required and at least 4 seats min & be able to carry cycles for kids etc.
This will not stop the knobheads of course but would clear up a few things.
 
There is simply no need to leave crap in a car park or anywhere else for that matter, just crap into a carrier bag, on newspaper, or whatever else is handy, wrap it up and bin it. People are far too squeamish when it comes to excrement, if you touch it you wont die and washing hands works wonders or use sanitiser! As for the smell, that isn't going to kill you either. Do people fart perfume - no.
Of course if you have a new girl/boyfriend with you, it could be a bit tricky but you could ask them to take a walk.
As for peeing, we carry these with us https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1200ML-O...=293401484089ac17852da2d748028c8f1ca6de89672a
 
izwozral said:
There is simply no need to leave crap in a car park or anywhere else for that matter, just crap into a carrier bag, on newspaper, or whatever else is handy, wrap it up and bin it. People are far too squeamish when it comes to excrement, if you touch it you wont die and washing hands works wonders or use sanitiser! As for the smell, that isn't going to kill you either. Do people fart perfume - no.
Of course if you have a new girl/boyfriend with you, it could be a bit tricky but you could ask them to take a walk.
As for peeing, we carry these with us https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1200ML-Outdoor-Urine-Bottle-Male-Men-Women-Pee-Storage-Camping-Travel-UK-Nice/293401484089?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item4450175b39:m:mhx6H8rQdPj5PZcmDLa-Mjg&enc=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&checksum=293401484089ac17852da2d748028c8f1ca6de89672a
Click to expand...

That’s the biggest web link of all time Izzy, get it onto the Guinness book of records. :)
 
mariesnowgoose said:
Did anyone see a documentary about fly tipping recently? Fascinating stuff.
It is apparently a mega business - reckoned to be worth millions - for criminals who are operating countrywide.

If you put into perspective the amount of human poo found in car parks nationwide it pales into insignificance by comparison.

BUT - that doesn't stop councils wanting to address the perceived problem - unfortunately antisocial behaviour runs across the board and, as channa says, I wonder how much of this 'human faeces' problem is solely down to irresponsible travellers of whatever creed or colour? How about ordinary truck and van drivers? Or just people in cars? Motorhomes, camper vans and caravans are just easy targets because they are highly visible and easily distinguished from other vehicles, so it makes it easy to legislate against them parking up.

I don't know what the answer is, but we really should take a stand when excessive legislation starts restricting our freedom of movement, imho.

PS - and our freedom to park up in public spaces!
Click to expand...

Yes Marie I saw the programme, kind of puts a few Motorhomes parked up for the night into perspective.
But it begs the question, who is worse the fly tippers or those who give them the rubbish in the first place.
We all know this goes on, and yet some continue to feed these criminals.
 
[QUOTE="izwozral, post: 1050 As for the smell, that isn't going to kill you either. Do people fart perfume - no.Every one knows girls dont fart or so they say. ;)
 
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