Boris: SD changing 4th July

Fisherman

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Yeah, gave up too soon. :ROFLMAO:
There was plenty of mileage in the "If the common cold had been as deadly as COVID" comment, and linking to the BBC is a sure sign of clutching at straws. :p😂
You just make sure you pay your TV licence Mark, we need non watchers like you to subsidise watchers like me :p
 

mark61

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You just make sure you pay your TV licence Mark, we need non watchers like you to subsidise watchers like me :p
Haven't had a TV for at least 10, if not 15 years. :)

Doesn't stop them knocking on my door asking why I haven't got a licence though. :ROFLMAO:
 

Fisherman

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Haven't had a TV for at least 10, if not 15 years. :)

Doesn't stop them knocking on my door asking why I haven't got a licence though. :ROFLMAO:
Well then you have nothing to complain about then do you.
As a non paying TV licence dodger :)
 

antiquesam

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Rather over simplified Sam, if it was that easy the world would not be struggling with this. You plan ahead to do these simple things, you don’t react to something that comes out of the blue. Something you don’t know much about, or have ever seen before. When this all kicked of no one knew exactly what would happen or what to do. Much of what was done was based on little or no knowledge. I don’t think any of that applies to digging a hole, or putting up a fence. A tad more uncertain and complicated Sam. And we may still need all of these extra beds, and ventilators, who knows, we are learning each and every day.

Also Sam you have to remember that our politicians are not scientists, and relied heavily on advice from scientists. And the scientists themselves are on a learning curve with Covid.
I did say it was simplistic but the principle still stands. After leaving the Bank and while getting the antique business up and running I wrote the method statements and risk assessments for a demolition contractor. We demolished everything from houses to dockyard cranes with most other things in between. We wouldn't be allowed on site without a detailed risk management. Every possible problem would have to be thought through from causing damage to personnel to damage to adjoining properties and the highway. When we demolished 27 bridges to make way for the M3 Winchester bypass we even had to assess the risk to the tree huggers. Your argument seems to be that the Health Service didn't need to take into consideration the likely outcome of pushing hunfdreds of oldies into care homes, ill equiped to isolate them despite the fact they have legions of layers of management trained to manage risk. I know because I've come up against them when doing even easy jobs on Health Service land.
 

Minisorella

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Yeah, gave up too soon. :ROFLMAO:
There was plenty of mileage in the "If the common cold had been as deadly as COVID" comment, and linking to the BBC is a sure sign of clutching at straws. :p😂
Oi you! Consider yourself slapped with a wet kipper 🦈 :ROFLMAO:
 

yorkslass

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Rather over simplified Sam, if it was that easy the world would not be struggling with this. You plan ahead to do these simple things, you don’t react to something that comes out of the blue. Something you don’t know much about, or have ever seen before. When this all kicked of no one knew exactly what would happen or what to do. Much of what was done was based on little or no knowledge. I don’t think any of that applies to digging a hole, or putting up a fence. A tad more uncertain and complicated Sam. And we may still need all of these extra beds, and ventilators, who knows, we are learning each and every day.

Also Sam you have to remember that our politicians are not scientists, and relied heavily on advice from scientists. And the scientists themselves are on a learning curve with Covid.
Politicians arn't scientists, but it doesn't take a genius to see and act on what was happening. Spain and Italy were struggling while......

Boris was going around shaking hands and back slapping
Trump seems to think he can threaten the virus away
Putin yesterday with the March in Moscow thinks he can strongarm it away.
And a Russian veteran said, we sorted Hitler so we can sort this virus.

It would be good if all these world leaders had an ounce of common sense.
 

Fisherman

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I did say it was simplistic but the principle still stands. After leaving the Bank and while getting the antique business up and running I wrote the method statements and risk assessments for a demolition contractor. We demolished everything from houses to dockyard cranes with most other things in between. We wouldn't be allowed on site without a detailed risk management. Every possible problem would have to be thought through from causing damage to personnel to damage to adjoining properties and the highway. When we demolished 27 bridges to make way for the M3 Winchester bypass we even had to assess the risk to the tree huggers. Your argument seems to be that the Health Service didn't need to take into consideration the likely outcome of pushing hunfdreds of oldies into care homes, ill equiped to isolate them despite the fact they have legions of layers of management trained to manage risk. I know because I've come up against them when doing even easy jobs on Health Service land.
Sam I have already agreed that the oldies should not have been moved, and I have stated very clearly that mistakes have been made. I have never stated on here that what was done to those elderly people was correct or unavoidable. Again you quote things that can be planned carefully before they commence, with the benefit of precedence of similar projects. And even with such detailed knowledge and precedence planned projects can go seriously wrong. This virus came with no such precedence and with little knowledge of its possibilities or consequences.
 
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Fisherman

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Politicians arn't scientists, but it doesn't take a genius to see and act on what was happening. Spain and Italy were struggling while......

Boris was going around shaking hands and back slapping
Trump seems to think he can threaten the virus away
Putin yesterday with the March in Moscow thinks he can strongarm it away.
And a Russian veteran said, we sorted Hitler so we can sort this virus.

It would be good if all these world leaders had an ounce of common sense.
Sorry but I am repeating myself again.

Mistakes have and are being made right now.
This is a dangerous phase, risks are being taken.
We don’t know for a fact how this will work out after phase 3.
We are still trying to find out more about this virus.
And all of the people that putin handshaked had been put into 14 day isolation before the military parade.

I am no Bojo lover, never voted Tory in my life.
Yes mistakes have been made, but this situation is very difficult for all who are trying to handle it.
 

antiquesam

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Sam I have already agreed that the oldies should not have been moved, and I have stated very clearly that mistakes have been made. I have never stated on here that what was done to those elderly people was correct or unavoidable. Again you quote things that can be planned carefully before they commence, with the benefit of precedence of similar projects. And even with such detailed knowledge and precedence planned projects can go seriously wrong. This virus came with no such precedence and with little knowledge of its possibilities or consequences.
I'm sorry but precedence doesn't work, pre thinking is needed. Standing looking at a collapsed water tower that had stood on 20ft. stilts no former knowledge would help in deciding which steel needs cutting first to avoid whiplash. Common sense helps, when demolishing a wall right next to a main road it would be cavalier to use a machine rather than taking it down by hand from scaffolding. I should point out that I had no experience of the demolition business, and to this day I've never seen anything pulled down from beginning to end. Surely the people at the top of an organisation the size of the NHS should do basic risk assessments.
 

Fisherman

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I'm sorry but precedence doesn't work, pre thinking is needed. Standing looking at a collapsed water tower that had stood on 20ft. stilts no former knowledge would help in deciding which steel needs cutting first to avoid whiplash. Common sense helps, when demolishing a wall right next to a main road it would be cavalier to use a machine rather than taking it down by hand from scaffolding. I should point out that I had no experience of the demolition business, and to this day I've never seen anything pulled down from beginning to end. Surely the people at the top of an organisation the size of the NHS should do basic risk assessments.

If you reckon that you could have done better that’s fair enough Sam.
I am only glad that as labour voter that labour are not in power right now.
 

antiquesam

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If you reckon that you could have done better that’s fair enough Sam.
I am only glad that as labour voter that labour are not in power right now.
No I thought they could do better, they are the experts and the clinicians who should know that someone with a flu like illness is a carrier and will pass it on, after all they had worked it out and thereby put us in lockdown but couldn't follow the logic through to old patients.
 

Fisherman

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No I thought they could do better, they are the experts and the clinicians who should know that someone with a flu like illness is a carrier and will pass it on, after all they had worked it out and thereby put us in lockdown but couldn't follow the logic through to old patients.
But you did follow the logic through Sam, so by definition you would/could have done better. And each of the 4 devolved governments in the uk, the Spanish, French and Italians all failed also. At one point in Scotland 60% of deaths were in cafe homes.
My main criticism is what happened in the care homes, but my biggest complaint is their refusal to admit their mistakes, like the French president did.
 

channa

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I still thiink it’s too early for inquiries we are still having new infections and deaths if we have learnt anything to reduce those then it would be sensible

What concerns me more having seen lack of social distancing on Bournemouth beach the open letter sent by the RCN and other professional bodies the odds of a second wave looks favourable it’s not as if we don’t know the viral transmission traits.

The vulnerable are exposed more than ever before I don’t think the forecast is that optimistic
 

Minisorella

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I've given a lot of thought to care homes. I know every country that has residential homes for the elderly had the same awful outcome... it's been truly tragic :cry:

What occurred to me though is to wonder what they do every winter during the annual 'flu epidemic? Surely they must be used to taking measures to avoid the spread of infections and should already have action plans appropriate to each home? I know they all had to buy their own PPE prior to COVID but they needed government help when supplies dried up. I also realise that the population within care homes were always going to be highly vulnerable to having bad outcomes from COVID but the homes themselves are experienced health providers and should be well versed in all that's needed to keep an epidemic under control. Back in the early days when there weren't enough tests, I'd have expected homes to automatically isolate people returning from hospitals. I know, I know, I already said elsewhere that hindsight is 20:20 but it's a worrying thought moving on.

I should also add that a huge number of care homes - the majority I believe - didn't get a single case, so were definitely doing everything right and deserve very high praise, bless them.
 

Fisherman

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As Channa stated this is not the time for enquiries.
I have no doubt that all of this will and must come out.
And its important for future pandemics that it does.
But right now we are looking forward to getting out,
meeting people, and trying to get on with life.
And that’s what we have to do right now, live with this.
Try to minimise errors,
And review what happened when it’s history.
Plenty of mistakes have been made, we must learn from them.
 

yorkslass

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I'm not so sure It will ever be history. Beaches crammed, raves and parties, how can it ever die out. Unfortunately those people who think they are unlikely to suffer any ill effects if they catch the virus, are behaving pre lockdown. They have stopped listening to the messages about staying at home and keeping their distance.
 

Minisorella

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I'm not so sure It will ever be history. Beaches crammed, raves and parties, how can it ever die out. Unfortunately those people who think they are unlikely to suffer any ill effects if they catch the virus, are behaving pre lockdown. They have stopped listening to the messages about staying at home and keeping their distance.
The media didn't help either by insisting on announcing, wrongly, that social distancing was down to 1m... even immediately after the briefing where it was all explained! It's still 2m unless that's not possible and was mostly about getting businesses up and running. I guess the people on Bournemouth beach today just decided it wasn't possible but there were no signs of the 'plus' elements either.

I think people are bored by it all to be honest and you're right, it's people who assume they'll get away with a mild dose who are taking liberties.
 

barge1914

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The government, scientists and medics said all the way through that it's far better to have too much capacity than not enough. When they started building the Nightingales, we'd spent a couple of weeks watching Italy having to resort to hopelessly inadequare emergency pop-up treatment centres in schools and community halls because their hospitals were horribly overwhelmed. Ironic to be in trouble for doing too good a job IMO.
In some ways we were lucky. We may berate NHS for all sorts of cockups, sometimes deservedly, although mostly as a result of political unpreparedness and underfunding. However notwithstanding that, we have one of the most joined up health services in the Western world. One thing I learned from working with Italian hospitals was just how badly joined up their system is, within each hospital, within each region, and nationally.
They had the same disconnect between health and social care, worse underfunding, more chaotic politicking. And most of all unlike us they didn’t see it coming. Watching Italian TV they were absolutely incredulous when the UK squandered the 2 or 3 weeks warning we had having already seen what was happening in Italy; what’s more we made all the same mistakes. Are our politicians so insular minded we can’t learn anything from the rest of the world?
 

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