2nd gas regulator

davemh

Guest
I wonder if someone could help me with a question:

Is it possible to fit something similar to this as a second regulator after the gas has come out of my main regulator?

Caravan / BBQ Calor Butane Screw On Regulator 28Mb New | eBay

The reason is that I have a water heater which is non standard because it needs Propane at 28mbar which is the pressure normally used for Butane.

So I would plan to use a standard Propane 37mbar regulator clipped on to the Propane bottle, and then put the Butane regulator just before the gas goes into the water heater.

I could use something like this adapter to connect the second regulator inline.

Gas Wade nozzle adapter 3/8"bspt x 5/16"(8mm)dia F705 | eBay

I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't work, but I would appreciate a second opinion.

Thank you
 
You should have no problem with 37mbar.

I have a 50mbar system on my German van. I have had to replace a waterheater and a fire both of which are labled to run at 30mbar. Truma do an inline reducer that will deliver 30mbar from my 50mbar system. I bought one of these but the fitter didn't bother to fit it to the heater and we have had no problems.

We use the van 24/7/365 and the heater is now 3 years old and the water heater is 18 months old.

Last winter I ran the whole van on a Spanish 28mbar regulator, again with no problems.
 
as far as i know regulators are non-return valves so you should be ok to put a T joint in the flexi pipe and put a regulator each end.i did this on mine so i didn't have to mess about when changing to camping gaz as back up.but try it and test it
 
hi, why not just run it on 37mbr propane. i use mine on either. in fact i run it on anything i can getr in the bottle. in morocco its alot of pentane in their gas runs fine.
what water heater is it.
i use a morco ,but its really fagor from spain. also use chinese water heaters bought in morocco work fine ,have used loads all my mates have them as well. i bring 5 or 6 every year from maroc . nice compact units.
 
trying to reply to this, but it keeps saying i need administrator approval!?

it let me do a short post, but anything longer gets rejected.

ah, now got it to work via the edit function. so...

so far the heater has been playing up a bit, it keeps cutting out. i'm not sure if this is really 'cause of the pressure, but i was thinking the reason might be 'cause it's one of these tankless ones:

http://www.excelamerica.com/calentadores_eng.htm

they seem to have a bunch of clever safety cut out electrics in there.

i don't think the manufacturers will be much help 'cause they've already told me that it will only work at the stated pressures.

i will give it a try on 37mbar propane, and like nbrown says, it shouldn't be a massive hassle to give it a try adding in a 2nd reg.

thanks all for your feedback.
 
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davemh said:
I wonder if someone could help me with a question:

Is it possible to fit something similar to this as a second regulator after the gas has come out of my main regulator?

Caravan / BBQ Calor Butane Screw On Regulator 28Mb New | eBay

The reason is that I have a water heater which is non standard because it needs Propane at 28mbar which is the pressure normally used for Butane.

So I would plan to use a standard Propane 37mbar regulator clipped on to the Propane bottle, and then put the Butane regulator just before the gas goes into the water heater.

I could use something like this adapter to connect the second regulator inline.

Gas Wade nozzle adapter 3/8"bspt x 5/16"(8mm)dia F705 | eBay

I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't work, but I would appreciate a second opinion.

Thank you
Click to expand...

It needs propane at 28 mbar that cant be the case?, Propane is 37 mbar as you are aware

More to the point the jetting on propane / butane is identical only when you get involved with natural gas does things change.

From your post I see no reason to introduce a second regulator.

Channa
 
Unfortunately the spec is a bit different. I think they are designed in Japan and they're sold from America. The spec is 11"WC for propane and 10" WC for butane. I did the maths and I double checked with the retailer...

By the way, what is "jetting"?
 
davemh said:
Unfortunately the spec is a bit different. I think they are designed in Japan and they're sold from America. The spec is 11"WC for propane and 10" WC for butane. I did the maths and I double checked with the retailer...

By the way, what is "jetting"?
Click to expand...

Jetting is Jet size all to do with the size of the gas jet on an appliance, which invariably is different on natural gas appliances as opposed to LPG i.e Butane / propane.Rarely an issue with motorhomes.

11' wc sounds like an ' inch' expression rather than millibar the standard measurement in Europe.( the yanks are equally as guilty in terms of expressing atmospheric pressure for aircraft choosing 29.2 inches as a standard god bless em yet we prefer millibars )

I still remain unconvinced as to the need for a second regulator.

I gas test mobile homes, and we allow plus/minus 5 mbar either side of the 28 mbar/37 mbar butane / propane figures.

37 minus 5 = 32mbar 28 plus 5= 33 mbar hence the reason on a lot of modern vans the 30 mbar regulator.

To my knowledge propane has never been designed to run at 28 mbar, run propane with a propane regulator all should be fine.

Incidentally this season I have probably tested in excess of 200 vans, all on butane and not once has the regulator shown a pressure of 28 mbars.

Channa
 
hi uk used to use 11inch its the same as 28mbr suposedly. japanese chinese all the same use it on your propane reg, or drive down here and let me show you . . i said chinese but i do have one here from japan. same thing if you take the cover off. i have 3 different ones here +my morco (fagor). using uk regs 28mbr butane .37mbr propane it will work. or like i say come here let me do it if it doesnt i,ll give you one of mine. cant be fairer than that.
cheers alan.
 
ok, this is encouraging and i'm learning new stuff, great.

- that makes sense about why 30mbar is used and it does show that pressure shouldn't really be that important.

- so are you saying that all the 200 vans you tested were using butane? i thought propane was more popular, is this not the case?

- yes 11"wc = 11 inches water column. Millibars is effectively a measurement of centimeters water column someone told me, so the conversion between the two is just the same as converting between centimeters and inches.

- this is encouraging that you're saying that my heater is similar to other ones like morco and that these are a good / popular choice. i presume you mean ones like these: http://caravanshop.co/water-heating.html

i read their literature about the fact that my one is "flueless" and that it's got a special oxygen depletion cut out system, and i thought it all sounded a bit non standard. http://www.excelamerica.com/calentadores_eng.htm



thanks for persevering with this, and thanks for the offer alan. i think i will now go back to the drawing board and try testing it again with the current butane @ 28mbar. i'm not sure why the heat was cutting out, maybe there's another reason, i will investigate different settings for the gas flow and water flow controls.

from what i remember, it seems to stop heating and go totally cold if you set the water flow dial below about half way, and if you set the dials both at the high end the water comes out really steaming / scalding hot. so then i set the dials to give a nice shower temperature at full flow, and this was fine for about 10 seconds, but then it cuts out.

maybe it would work to get the water temperature out of the unit higher and use some cold from the mixer taps to achieve a good shower temperature? i will go back and get some better observation on this.

the other bonus is that this is great entertainment for a saturday night. woo!
 
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At the risk of stating the obvious.

You did have a well charged battery and good wiring connections? Gas water & air heaters are notoriously sensitive to voltage drop. Check the voltage at the input connections to the heater.

John
 
good thought but i don't think it's an issue. there's actually no electrical connection. there's a piezo igniter which is run by 2 x size D (like AA but larger) batteries. the batteries are new and the boiler is lighting up ok.
 
hi ,i cant remember the pump flow or pressure i use. cant getr into my truck at moment. they can be a bit temperamental on that stuff .i know we use a sureflo pump usually . the morco as a pilot light and if the wire thermo link touches the casing they dont light or cut out. .the chinesaev/japanese use the battery light upo ign. trhey usually work fine but need correct flow ,pressure . some times they block the showwer head with chalk build up . it helps if you just crack open the kittchen sink tap, or the pump keeps cutting in and out the burner dosent heat the water. fine tuning on the dials is essential, also some have a summer or winter setting . i always use summer setting .but go away in winter . its a bit of hit and miss . used mine tonight asthe boiler in the house is being replaced . summer setting 3/4 temp setting . but also altitude effects them . hit or miss again . i fit them outside the shower room so a nice friend can adjust the heat for you. cold in hot out . no mixer taps on the trucks i build. i can say i have been using this kind of water heater for 20yrs they are a bit temperamental but i love them. compact . i never use a chimney. fitted god knows how many sold loads . usually to motorcross truck builders . some have come back for more as they change their trucks. if you get near cornwall call in i can always have a look for you. no charge . bet its something simple. i really use all the gasses on any of the regulators .filled autogas ,lpg ,gpl . you name it the trucks i build go all over asia or africa. 28mbr 30mbr 37mbr 50mbr .try it if it works its ojk . never had a problem . so me workbetter thanothers .its only a game .
d size batteries are what i call torch batteries . aa is smaller aaa is smaller again. the heaters i use use d size .
 
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davemh said:
ok, this is encouraging and i'm learning new stuff, great.

- that makes sense about why 30mbar is used and it does show that pressure shouldn't really be that important.

- so are you saying that all the 200 vans you tested were using butane? i thought propane was more popular, is this not the case?

- yes 11"wc = 11 inches water column. Millibars is effectively a measurement of centimeters water column someone told me, so the conversion between the two is just the same as converting between centimeters and inches.

- this is encouraging that you're saying that my heater is similar to other ones like morco and that these are a good / popular choice. i presume you mean ones like these: Caravan Water Heating, Caravan water heaters, Water heaters for Caravans caravanshop

i read their literature about the fact that my one is "flueless" and that it's got a special oxygen depletion cut out system, and i thought it all sounded a bit non standard. Gas Water Heater



thanks for persevering with this, and thanks for the offer alan. i think i will now go back to the drawing board and try testing it again with the current butane @ 28mbar. i'm not sure why the heat was cutting out, maybe there's another reason, i will investigate different settings for the gas flow and water flow controls.
Click to expand...

The reason the vans run on butane is they are only used in the summer so cold weather is not an issue.

I agree with Alan, if it is the Morco type of boiler then the water flow is sensitive. Normally best to introduce hot water first then introduce cold.

What can happen, is cold water pressure is higher than the hot, the hot water has difficulty adding to the mix this causes a back pressure in the system which in effect fools the water demand valve into closing down, A common problem on Morco types. If the unit is heating highly unlikely it is a gas problem.

Also highly unlikely it is anything to do with the Oxygen sensor,

I hope this helps

Channa
 
davemh said:
i read their literature about the fact that my one is "flueless" and that it's got a special oxygen depletion cut out system, and i thought it all sounded a bit non standard. Gas Water Heater
Click to expand...

I would think seriously about getting a different water heater. A flueless gas water heater is really not suitable for use in the enclosed space of a camper. Going by the figures on the link you give, the heat input is more than 11kW, I'm a bit out of touch with current gas regs but I think that flueless heaters are only permitted for 'single point' use and must not be more that 11kW.

AndyC
 
- the water heater is currently in a storage section of the van, at the back, separate to the living space. i've got a simple louvred vent just above the heater which i think is enough for fairly short runs of heating, and for longer ones such as showers, the back doors can be opened.

i have an idea that i might knock the wall of the back area through into the living space in which case i would probably plan to put the heater in some kind of sealed box and would probably increase the size of the vent to make sure it will be big enough to handle the full heat output. i guess this would work, otherwise i would consider getting a different kind of heater.

- ok, i will definitely start paying more attention to water flow and pressure, this is good to know. my pump is a sureflo, but the water flow has a tendency to be a bit irregular and stutter. i think this is probably when air has got into the system from when i've run out of water and had to refill or switch over water tanks. for fresh tanks i have 3 x 25 litre plastic jobbies inside the van. i guess it would be good to try and keep these topped up so they don't run out, otherwise it might take at least 5 litres worth of flow before all the air has got through the system.

channa, just so i understand this, when you say water demand valve, do you mean the one next to the main water pump, or is this a valve inside the water heater?

- also, by the way, is butane chosen over propane just because it's got a higher energy density?

thanks guys
 
yes, if i'm down your way alan, it would be great to see your set up and get your help / advice. nice one...
 
davemh said:
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channa, just so i understand this, when you say water demand valve, do you mean the one next to the main water pump, or is this a valve inside the water heater?

- also, by the way, is butane chosen over propane just because it's got a higher energy density?

thanks guys
Click to expand...

The water demand valve is the spaceship shaped thing in the water heater itself, if you take off the cover you will see it where the cold supply enters the boiler

I have re read the thread, and something that is not clear is when you say the water heater is going out ......do you mean when demanding hot water ? or is the pilot flame going out intermittently? If it is the former, then it is the pressure thing I described, if it is the latter then you have a blocked pilot jet which is easy to cure. And probably caused by dirty gas at some stage

Butane does have a higher calorific value than Propane, Hence the reason it runs at a slightly lower pressure. However in low temperatures around 5 degrees it has a problem gassing which is why propane is a must if you are intending camping in the cold season.

In respect of a flueless appliance, If you think about it a camping stove is flueless provided there is adequate ventilation it shouldnt be a problem.

You dont make it clear, but it seems you have upper ventilation, you should also have lower ventilation too in the form of a drop out. in the floor.the reason for the lower ventilation i sto let the gas escape should there be a leak LPG is heavier than air.

One tour operator on one of our sites Have gone overboard in respect of the boilers they are accessed via an outside cabinet. This all came about when in a totally unrelated incident some young children died in an apartment in Greece from Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

Channa
 
channa said:
...do you mean when demanding hot water ? or is the pilot flame going out intermittently? If it is the former, then it is the pressure thing I described, if it is the latter then you have a blocked pilot jet which is easy to cure. And probably caused by dirty gas at some stage.

Butane does have a higher calorific value than Propane, Hence the reason it runs at a slightly lower pressure. However in low temperatures around 5 degrees it has a problem gassing which is why propane is a must if you are intending camping in the cold season.

you should also have lower ventilation too in the form of a drop out. in the floor.the reason for the lower ventilation i sto let the gas escape should there be a leak LPG is heavier than air.
Click to expand...

The heater doesn't have a pilot, it just has piezo run by batteries for ignition. This is working ok, so it must be the pressure thing.

Ok, I will stick with Butane for now and then move to Propane when I do some winter camping. I like the idea of camping in the british cold period.

I don't have any drop out ventilation, and I know that you should have these. I will look at getting some put in.

Thanks
 
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