Michelin Camper Tyres

Sharpie said:
By "stiffened" sidewall I would think that that means extra reinforcement to be able to take the higher maximum pressure specified.

The rubber of the tyre being basically a bladder, it gets its shape and structure and strength from the strength of, and way that, the plies are laid up inside. And the higher the pressure inside the stiffer it becomes.

I suspect that say a van tyre running at 65 psi would be similarly "stiff" to a camper tyre run at 65 psi, rather than 85.

85 is 30% higher than 65, so the tyre must surely be significantly more strongly built to withstand this, when you consider the overall pressure on the total area of the sidewall it is enormous. All held in by just two windings of polyester strands in the ones in the picture above. Perhaps those plies are much stronger ones, or more tightly wound ?

Since Dethleffs specify 65 rear 60 front, and fitted van tyres originally, not camping ones, from new, and my weighbridge tests show that both axles are comfortably within their plated weights, that's good enough for me.

Besides, when I replaced the originals I uprated them to the wider ones that the Fiat handbook show as correct, there are two options given for the same wheels, and the wider, slightly lower profile ones have a higher load rating, so I have more margin.

But that's just my setup, and I do realise that some motorhomes with pitifully small payload allowances are sometimes run heavily overloaded because the owners, even the dealers, pay no attention to this and just pile stuff in and add stuff on, as long as there is room for it and have never visited a weighbridge to check, or just prefer not to know. So perhaps that's when a stronger constructed camper tyre, run at maximum pressure, would withstand the abuse much better.

If the manufacturer fitted camping tyres originally it would be sensible to keep on choosing them, they may have anticipated them being run overloaded and chosen them as a prudent precaution.

Just my speculation,

By the way, I like to have M+S all round, I wouldn't want them only on the front drive wheels. In poor conditions with the rears giving far less grip (and under the heavier load) the tail could slide out unpredictably and suddenly, you won't get much warning from e.g steering feel, and no amount of electronic driver aids will help if basically the rear end is no longer stuck to the road.
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Certainly agree on M+S on all 4 wheels...and the spare.
I have run my present van (of similar weight to the new one) for the last 5 years on Vredestein all Season tyres at 4.7 bar, as recommended by Vredestein, to no ill effect and with much improved grip in winter. Previous Continental campers at 5.5bar as recommended by Fiat were like driving on concrete wheels and slipped like mad on grass; when I reduced to the lower pressures recommended by Continental the ride improved considerably. Continental reckoned Fiat doesn’t know how the base vehicle will be loaded when they send them to the converters so they play safe and recommend the max pressure...which is over top for all but the heaviest vans.

The fact remains that there is no purpose made camper tyre that qualifies for winter use in Germany. Hence in Germany and other Alpine countries the use of all season commercial van tyres such as Agilis Crossclimate is common on motorhomes, as indeed it is on commercials.
 
Certainly agree that running tyres at 80 psi maybe badly detrimental to the ride, and even the grip. Under the same load, the higher you pump them up, the smaller the contact patch. You may even find that the wear is uneven, the middle of the tread wearing faster, clear signs that the tread is not being uniformly pressed against the road and shortening the lifespan as well.

If you weigh your van and talk to a decent tyre manufacturer's technical people and tell them what weights you are actually running at on each axle, even each corner, they should be able to advise you what is the best pressure to be using.

I've done that and found that mine are about right, possibly a little high.

You can even have a guess at it yourself, e.g. tyre rated for 1100 kilos at 65 psi max. pressure, actually running at 900 kilos, simple proportions suggests 53 psi might be somewhere in the ballpark. Still I stick with what Dethleffs specify, and my tyres have now done about 50,000 miles, wearing evenly, plenty of tread left, probably good for another year.
 
Sharpie said:
If you weigh your van and talk to a decent tyre manufacturer's technical people and tell them what weights you are actually running at on each axle, even each corner, they should be able to advise you what is the best pressure to be using.
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Michelin will only give you one figure for CP tyres on the rear irrespective of loading, and that's the maximum pressure.
 
Agreed - Michelin don't ask for loads.
It's always 65F 80R.
Apparently Continental will specify on loads.
For me the front axle is at max load so happy with 65 psi in CP tyre (I have tried 80 psi and ride was awful)
My rear is 200kg under combined van tyre rating so I run them at 70 psi (v 75 max)
With air assist on the Alko axle I get a quiet enough ride.

I think Michelin are working on the max pressure reduces deformation when parked principle.

For what it's worth here's a ply rating v pressure table.

Screenshot_20200123-172616_Chrome.jpg
 
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So pump them up to max when laid up for a long period, and let them down again before setting off. Would be my thinking. And don't suffer a teeth rattling ride and possibly shaking bits of the interior to bits.

After a bit of running around even if they've gone a bit out of round I think that would correct itself soon enough, I'd be surprised if it was permanent.
 
I have a Burstner Nexxo, if I run with the recommended pressures 3.5/5.5 bar front to back, it gives a hard ride , searched around on the net and it appeared rear pressures should be about 4.75 bar so I now run at these pressures the ride is improved and tyre wear is spot on.
 
Well reading this has buggered my plans for next month, my motorhome which I bought new came with 16" Michelin Agilis camping tyres with M&S stamped on the sidewalls, also says the load rating is 116 at 80 psi. We was planning on heading to Germany mid February believing we had the correct tyres and around 6mm of tread left on them, I also have snow chains as back up, but on reading this forum it seems it's a no no. Might have to consider going back to Spain now and maybe come back through Germany in May.
 
barge1914 said:
Not if I want to go to Germany in winter...not allowed.
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Not necessarily correct.

If your tyres were manufactured before 2018 (marked on the side) and are only M+S, as are mine, on both axles (and I do carry snow chains as well), they are still allowed. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are much use use in true winter conditions, they could just be summer tyres with a chunky tread. I think that mine are a bit better than that, they have many tiny little sipes that you won't see on basic summer tyres, but I doubt that the rubber is a proper winter compound. Certainly the full-on Winter tyres that we have on my partners car feel completely different (astonishingly good) in sub zero conditions. But they are not some compromise all-season, run all year round thing, I don't expect that they would fall to bits in summer, but that's absolutely not what they were designed for, they are optimised for Winter and perform quite superbly.

I've had to put on the chains just once, fortunately I'd practiced beforehand and did it early, in anticipation of forthcoming problems. If I'd waited until getting stuck, which I'm sure would have happened further up the road, it would have been a nightmare, even with the ex army entrenching tool and tub of salty grit that I also carry. Those usually live in the boot of the car but are transferred to the van when I take it out.

According to:

See https://www.eurocampings.co.uk/blog/listing/new-regulations-for-winter-tyres-germany/

Specifically.

"Transitional regulation
Does this mean the tyres you bought before 2018 were a waste of money? Thankfully, no. A transitional regulation will be in force until 30 September 2024 and winter or all-season tyres with only an M + S code can still be used, provided they were manufactured before 1 January 2018. You may be required to prove that the tyres were actually manufactured and purchased before that date. If you already have the Alpine symbol on your tyres, you’ll be fine, no matter what year they were purchased or manufactured.

The production date of the tyre can be checked using the DOT code shown on the tyre. The four numerals of the code show the production date. For example, the numerals 2416 mean that the tyre was manufactured in the 24th week of 2016. It is mandatory for all winter tyres or all-season tyres manufactured after 1 January 2018 to have an Alpine symbol. Make sure you check the production date and the symbol when buying new tyres."

Also:

"Change as of 1 July
On 1 July 2020, another rule will be added. In winter conditions, commercial vehicles and buses weighing more than 3500 kg – which includes motorhomes – must be equipped with winter tyres on both the drive axles and the steering axle. Until 1 July 2020, this is only mandatory on the drive axles. So if you need new tyres for your motorhome, you might as well add winter tyres on the steering axle, otherwise you’ll just have to get those next year.

From 1 July 2020, motorhomes must have winter tyres on both the drive axle and the steering axle

Fines and liability
If your tyres do not meet the new requirements during a control, there will be a €60 fine. If you are inconveniencing other road users this will be increased to €80. Moreover, if you are involved in an accident, even if it was not your fault, you may be held jointly liable. In other words, failure to use winter tyres when you should have done means you could be asked to pay damages. So make sure your tyres are right for the weather. Of course, with good 4-season tyres you won’t have to worry about anything all year!

Winter equipment
To comply with all the regulations in winter conditions, your car should be fully equipped for the winter. German law specifies that your car must be equipped for current weather conditions. In addition to the correct tyres, your car must have sufficient screen washer (containing antifreeze) in winter and properly functioning windscreen wipers.

In addition, it is also mandatory to use snow chains on some (mountain) roads, so make sure you carry a set in your car. Finally, an emergency triangle, high-visibility vests and a first aid kit are of course mandatory. If you drive a vehicle combination (for example a car with a caravan) then it is also mandatory to have two wheel chocks in the car. A portable yellow flashing light is also recommended, but is not mandatory for vehicles without a German license plate"
 
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I don't care what anyone else thinks, I have Michelin Crossclimate on my van and love them, the ride is good, I can run them at 80psi on the rear if needed but 70psi is comfortable, I can go to Germany in Winter, Spain in the Summer and the tyres work well so what is not to like, don't believe everything you read
 
6 years grace on basis M&S tyres is fairly generous as there's also a minimum tread depth requirement.
It's not good practice but front wheel drive vehicles only need MS on front axle.
 
Tezza33 said:
I don't care what anyone else thinks, I have Michelin Crossclimate on my van and love them, the ride is good, I can run them at 80psi on the rear if needed but 70psi is comfortable, I can go to Germany in Winter, Spain in the Summer and the tyres work well so what is not to like, don't believe everything you read
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I am sure that they are good expensive tyres, but they are not comparable to a true winter tyre. Somehow Michelin have got them past the testing for the snowflake symbol, as I said everything is a compromise. Neither do they make them in the mysterious Camping category. You can buy other things from reputable brands that, on paper, are equally capable. for even 50% less.

You make your choice and pay your money accordingly.

This is what mytires have to say about them, my emphasis added:

MICHELIN CrossClimate @ mytyres.co.uk

MICHELIN CrossClimate, first summer tyres with snowflake symbol- check with mytyres.co.uk. Available starting May 2015.
www.mytyres.co.uk www.mytyres.co.uk

"The new MICHELIN CrossClimate is a summer tyre that combines the advantages of summer and winter tyres at the best. This means: short braking distances on wet and dry conditions, high mileage and good traction on snowy roads. With this motorists in regions with mild winters need only one set of tyres and spare themselves the biannual tyre change. Of course the tyre has the snowflake symbol, which underlines its winter performance."

That suggests that they are actually an intermediate, more optimised for Summer than Winter, that has managed to pass the testing for the snowflake. but might not be the best for much beyond "mild winter", which should be good enough for most.

A sensible all round choice, providing you don't worry about the whole camping rating mysteriousness and possible FUD.

"
 
Quite agree - if you really need winter tyres regularly get them on separate wheels and swap them on and off.
All climate are compromise in both directions.
I do this on my car and get 3-4 winters out of them with daily use for 3-4 months a year.
Obviously the summer tyres last a lot longer.
 
Markd said:
Quite agree - if you really need winter tyres regularly get them on separate wheels and swap them on and off.
All climate are compromise in both directions.
I do this on my car and get 3-4 winters out of them with daily use for 3-4 months a year.
Obviously the summer tyres last a lot longer.
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Quite agreed, these compromise tyres are neither one thing nor the other.

Our fast car gets the full on Winter tyres put on and taken off according to season, they make a dramatic difference.

Overall they don't cost anything extra over their lifetime. They save wear and tear on the extreme Summer tyres and alloy wheels which are frankly dangerous on cold, very wet, even muddy, never mind snow and ice conditions, and cost less than half as much to replace. And if I ding a steel wheel on an invisible pothole or something else concealed on the road, £30, it can either be beaten round again or replaced. One Summer alloy costs nearly £500. Of course we drive differently on them in Winter, but that's no hardship, couldn't possibly exploit the full performance in really Wintry conditions, But we still can on good dry winter days, just that the handling is very different.

But this isn't really practical or necessary for campers,unless you really want to run two sets of wheels and tyres. Just realise that intermediates can only ever be a compromise, and if part of that is to just scrape through the snowflake testing then that will be at the expense of some other property, unless some amazing new polymer technology is invented. Rubber compounding is a very mature technology.

Do you want maximum wet/dry braking performance (most important to me), combined with the top economy and wear resistance,,low noise, comfort, work impeccably all year round in all climates, meeting every regulation all year around, whilst at lowest price. Well that is impossible, obviously. A one tyre that does everything superbly is not yet possible.

I am careful with my money, do my research, and choose something that seems to suit how I use things. Others must always have the best, as they see it and don't have the time or inclination to spend an hour or two on the web reading about things that may or may not be correct, take a view and look at the many alternative options.

Certainly I think it is unlikely that you will do much better than Michelins, as an all-rounder. They are surely good tyres. But there are others out there which are better, sometimes much better, for specific focussed applications.
 
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Mobilvetta said:
Well reading this has buggered my plans for next month, my motorhome which I bought new came with 16" Michelin Agilis camping tyres with M&S stamped on the sidewalls, also says the load rating is 116 at 80 psi. We was planning on heading to Germany mid February believing we had the correct tyres and around 6mm of tread left on them, I also have snow chains as back up, but on reading this forum it seems it's a no no. Might have to consider going back to Spain now and maybe come back through Germany in May.
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So it does seem that you would be legal in Germany on your current tyres.
 
I would note that CrossClimates work very well in winter, in fact on some tests I have seen they have better winter performance than some cheaper winter tyres. I had a dramatic experience of just how much better they are on snow when driving one of my 4x4's with CrossClimates on the back and summer tyres on the front, not something I'll ever do again. As for M+S tyres, if ever there was a misnamed product this is it. Anyway here's a video of some tyres on a car.
 
Sharpie said:
I am sure that they are good expensive tyres, but they are not comparable to a true winter tyre.



A sensible all round choice, providing you don't worry about the whole camping rating mysteriousness and possible FUD.

"
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I have been running full winter tyres for the last 6 years, in that time I have driven in snow twice and it certainly made a difference, only driven once on compacted snow which had turned to ice and had to fit chains, the only downside was the van swayed a bit more which I put down to softer sidewalls and lower pressures
Before that I ran on Michelin Campingcar tyres which had no grip on wet grass or even very light snow
I have never suffered from FUD and also I am not convinced with the belief that we need camper tyres
Sharpie said:
I am careful with my money, do my research, and choose something that seems to suit how I use things. Others must always have the best, as they see it and don't have the time or inclination to spend an hour or two on the web reading about things that may or may not be correct, take a view and look at the many alternative options.

Certainly I think it is unlikely that you will do much better than Michelins, as an all-rounder. They are surely good tyres. But there are others out there which are better, sometimes much better, for specific focussed applications.
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I don't know who that is aimed at but I did my research but also chose the tyres that I wanted based on my own experience and needs as well, then I did more research to buy at the cheapest price, I am very happy with my choice, the van steers and handles better
 
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